Dave Hearne <suntan!hearne@uunet.uu.net> writes:
|> On Fri, 24 Feb 1995, Ploko wrote:
|> > jmdillon@ellis.uchicago.edu (Joshua M. Dillon) writes:
|>>>
|> > > In short, the argument that disease or acts of nature can be
|> > >considered morally evil is an absurd one. Bad, sure; but not morally evil.
|> > > JMD
|> >In which case,if humans are judged by the same standards, we can be bad, but
|> >not morally evil either.This definition of evil and good takes all sense out
|> >of the concepts.
|> I'm confused, what is the parallel between human beings and
|> animals and viruses? Other than the fact that all are alive, I see
|> none. Humans CAN'T be judged by the same standards! Humans have
|> intelligence and free will, animals and viruses do not. They act solely
|> on instinct and natural impulses. I think that this was central to JMD's
|> point. I agree that an animal can be bad but not evil because animals do
|> not kill arbitrarily. Animals do not wage wars that kill millions of
|> innocent animals. Animals do not steal. Are you getting my point
|> here? You cannot apply morality to an organism that does not understand it.
Prove that a dolphin _isn't_ sentient and _lacks_ free will.
Prove that a chimpanzee _isn't_ sentient and _lacks_ free will.
Dolphins are able to kill sharks by ramming them. I don't know if they
do it for sport, but I do know they are quite intelligent and are observed
to do it, I presume, in a variety of contexts. I doubt if they wait for
the shark to actually attack because that would probably be fatal. If
I were a dolphin, I'd strike before the first bite came out of my hide.
The relationships between hyenas and lions (where they seem to kill
each other almost at will) is a complex one, defying trivial
analysis (they don't always kill each other on sight, even when
they are capable). They are battling for the same ecological niche,
but I once saw a marvelous show on them and it certainly made one
wonder whether there wasn't a lot of volition going on. (Before
this show, I'd always thought male lions did nothing by lie
around; actually, they seem to be resting up to kill hyenas,
something they are much better at than lionesses).
I also read an account where chimpanzees were caught in a recorded
act of cruelty.
Two chimps behaved as follows:
1. One held out food to a particularly stupid chicken.
2. Every time the chicken came forward for the food, the partner
chimp stuck a wire into the chicken, which retreated in pain.
Apparently, this little scene was repeated endlessly, to the evident
satisfaction of the chimps.
Is this "strictly instinctive" behavior?
I'd be hard pressed to prove it. All attempts to show that we are
different in _kind_ from animals tend to fail. We are only different
in degree. That may eventually have implications (we are presumably
more morally responsible than chimps or dolphins because we do know
more), but the idea that "only" humans can be held to have free will
or require some form of morality is pretty hopelessly anthropromorphic
nowadays. The counterexamples are growing.
--
Larry W. Loen | Science is often the act of trading
| comforting myths for exciting ideas
email to: lwloen@rchland.vnet.ibm.com
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Subject: Re: I disprove God and figuer out what holds atoms together!
From: dynasor@infi.net (Dennis McClain-Furmanski)
Followup-To:
talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.atheism.satire,alt.slack,alt.atheism.moderated
Dave Hearne (suntan!hearne@uunet.uu.net) wrote:
: I'm confused, what is the parallel between human beings and
: animals and viruses? Other than the fact that all are alive, I see
: none. Humans CAN'T be judged by the same standards! Humans have
: intelligence and free will, animals and viruses do not. They act solely
: on instinct and natural impulses.
There is no basis for this assertion other than your inability to
communicate with them. This logical flaw was reason enough for various
colonizing cultures to wipe out indigenous cultures. However, for this fact
alone, perhaps you are right; We shouldn't judge humans and other life forms
by the same stanards. They should be given much more consideration, since
they do not participate in 'civilization'. Still, any decision that animals
do not possess free will or 'intelligence' is based on unwarranted
assumption. Even proof that you cannot communicate with them will not
disprove it -- it will only prove your inability to communicate.
--
dynasor@infi.net The Doctor is on.
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Subject: Re: I disprove God and figuer out what holds atoms together!
From: brynta@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan Ayers)
>>>I agree that an animal can be bad but not evil because animals do
>>> not kill arbitrarily.
We are Animals we kill arbitrarily. Where do you separate humans
from animals in your argument. Humans however are not the only animals
that kill for no good reason. My cat for instance arbitrarily kills insects
and doesn't eat them.
>>> Animals do not wage wars that kill millions of innocent animals.
Humans again! But what about the plague, AIDS, parasites of
all kinds. It seems as though in Nature that when one speciese can
gain an advantage by wyping out another they do.
>>> Animals do not steal.
You must be joking! There are all kinds of speciese that
steal food, mates, living spaces, territory ... When a lion kills
a gazel the whole reason is to steal Calories and Nutrients that
the gazel has gathered from plants and manufactured in its body.
>>> Are you getting my point
>>>here? You cannot apply morality to an organism that does not understand it.
Why not? You are only arguing that Nature is either both good and
Evil or is totaly amoral. This I agree with. However the state of Nature is
sometimes gastly and horrific. An omni-benevolent creator can not be gleaned
from this. Even I would intervine in Natures cruelties somtimes and I am by
no means omni-benevolent. This defense of the all-powerful/good god concept
doesn't work. Even if Nature can not be criticised as being evil because of
the ignorance of her littleist creatures we still must feel some empathy
towards them and realize that if there is such a thing as a god it is not
all-good.
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Subject: Re: I disprove God and figuer out what holds atoms together!
From: i.stang@metronet.com (Rev. Ivan Stang)
Newsgroups:
talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.atheism.satire,alt.slack,alt.atheism.moderated
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.950304102625.17090C-100000@suntan>, Dave Hearne
<suntan!hearne@uunet.uu.net> wrote:
> I'm confused, what is the parallel between human beings and
> animals and viruses? Other than the fact that all are alive, I see
> none. Humans CAN'T be judged by the same standards! Humans have
> intelligence and free will, animals and viruses do not. They act solely
> on instinct and natural impulses.
If you say that again, I'll rip your throat out.
>I agree that an animal can be bad but not evil because animals do
> not kill arbitrarily. Animals do not wage wars that kill millions of
> innocent animals. Animals do not steal. Are you getting my point
> here? You cannot apply morality to an organism that does not understand it.
Have you never watched a sweet little kitty-cat TOY SADISTICALLY with a
mouse? Have you never seen footage of lions torturing zebras for hours
before delivering the death-blow? How about Hot Headed Naked Ice Borers
collectively RAPING penguins, for KICKS?
Animals don't STEAL? There are birds that take over the nests of other
species and push all the native eggs over the side to smash on the
pavement below. There are ANTS that keep APHIDS as SLAVES. There are
VIRUSES that wipe out WHOLE SPECIES. Sorry man, this just isn't a P.C.
world. It's dog-eat-cat. Well, dogs don't EAT cats, they just KILL THEM
FOR FUN. (And who knows, they may even feel GUILTY afterwards.)
How do you KNOW all these creatures, great and small, DON'T understand
morality... and then BLOW IT OFF in favor of the JOY of SHEER CRUELTY?
Who do you think you are -- TARZAN?
No offense.
--
Copyright! 1995 by Rev. Ivan Stang,
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Subject: Re: I disprove God and figuer out what holds atoms together!
From: mhagen@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu (Michael John Hagen)
How about Killer Whales? Ever seen what they do with seals when they're
having fun?
They pull them off the shore, drag them out into the open water, and
begin to play tennis with them (for lack of a better word). They
release the seal, dive under them, and give them a tremendous *whack*
with their tail, sending them flying through the air. Over and over
again. Seal's alive while they do it.
--
Mike Hagen | "Can it, bacon boy! If I wanted to know
mhagen@trumpet.calpoly.edu | about science, I wouldn't have cut class
| and spent all that time in the porno
| arcade!" -- Duckman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: I disprove God and figuer out what holds atoms together!
From: anrwlias@netcom.com (A.X. Lias)
Herb Huston (huston@access.digex.net) wrote:
: Rev. Ivan Stang <i.stang@metronet.com> wrote:
: } There are ANTS that keep APHIDS as SLAVES.
: No, the ants keep the aphids as we humans keep cows. However, there are
: some ants that enslave other ants.
My favorite ant is decapitanis regins which sneaks up to the top of the
queen ants of other species, nips off her head and then positions itself
in such a manner as to get free food from the other ants, who mistake it
for the now-dead queen.
--
Andrew Lias | anrwlias@netcom.com | Finger for PGP key
*-------------------*-------------------------------*----------------------*
A zealot's stones will break my bones, but gods will never hurt me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: I disprove God and figuer out what holds atoms together!
From: bdb@shadow.net (Doktor BoogieDown)
merlyn2@pentagon.io.com (Brian Westley) wrote:
>huston@access.digex.net (Herb Huston) writes:
>>In article <i.stang-1103950112020001@net243.metronet.com>,
>>Rev. Ivan Stang <i.stang@metronet.com> wrote:
>>} There are ANTS that keep APHIDS as SLAVES.
>
>>No, the ants keep the aphids as we humans keep cows. However, there are
>>some ants that enslave other ants.
>
>But *I* keep COWS as SLAVES.
True yetisyn go much further, and keep HUMANS as slaves. Who is it that
just said "WE HUMANS"? Was that STANG? <grumble> I smell something
foul...
Doktor BoogieDown
-----
bdb@shadow.net - Brian.D.Bisson@Miami.FL.USA.Earth.Sol.mway
Doktor, Church of the SubGenius - #include <ordainshipscription.h>
Excrimeditated Congregation of the Overinflated Head of L. Ron Hubbard
HTTP://www.shadow.net./~bdb for a dose of SubMediaBlasphemeWorship
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Hooked on Phonics (was: Re: Re : I disprove God...)
From: dherrin@krypta.snafu.de (Dan Herrin)
In a message dated 23 Feb 95 dwdyer@eskimo.com wrote to All:
> Seems the Feds are cracking down on the claims made in the Hooked on
> Phonics ads. Now we all know that these ads are a major source of
> revenue for conservative talk show hosts (Anyone care to guess why?
> It's a mystery to me...)
Befoah I tuk hook' on p'onics, I wuz a libb'r'l rabbit-pettin' goat-milk'n' uth
muthuh ... now I know how to pron-- prun-- pro-- artikkerlate the followin' wudz
krek-lee:
PRE PHONICS PRONUNCIATION CORRECT PRONUNCIATION
liberal murderous traitor
Thomas Jefferson Nazi
civil rights campaign uppity Negroes
Elders FemiNazi
life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness communism
I dunno why deh Fedz invest'at'en Hokk on P'onix, why don' deh jess
reduze size of guvment anyway why do all these Jockelyn Elders get
jobz anyway. I ain't hat no job in sebben yeahz daz why I lissn Rush
and get my p'onix from deah.
* Origin: The Hot Mojave (2:2410/208.68)
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