320 tons of HEX is just the tip of the iceberg
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:16:54 GMT
--------
WASHINGTON - (KRT) - The more than 320 tons of missing Iraqi high
explosives at center stage in the U.S. presidential election are only a
fraction of the weapons-related material that's disappeared in Iraq
since the U.S.-led invasion last year.
http://tinyurl.com/57obr
Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
condition of anonymity.
Correspondent:: König Prüß, GfbAEV
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:31:51 GMT
--------
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
> WASHINGTON - (KRT) - The more than 320 tons of missing Iraqi high
> explosives at center stage in the U.S. presidential election are only a
> fraction of the weapons-related material that's disappeared in Iraq
> since the U.S.-led invasion last year.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/57obr
>
> Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
> there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
> at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
> explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
> condition of anonymity.
Doesn't it beg the question, "Maybe there
were WMD's, and where did they go?"
One thing I've wondered, I saw that jet
fighters and other weapons were buried
in the desert during the '91 war, was any
of that shit ever retrieved? I dunno--
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:38:40 GMT
--------
König Prüß wrote:
>
> Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>
>> WASHINGTON - (KRT) - The more than 320 tons of missing Iraqi high
>> explosives at center stage in the U.S. presidential election are only a
>> fraction of the weapons-related material that's disappeared in Iraq
>> since the U.S.-led invasion last year.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/57obr
>>
>> Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
>> there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
>> at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
>> explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
>> condition of anonymity.
>
> Doesn't it beg the question, "Maybe there
> were WMD's, and where did they go?"
Not really. The locations of the stockpiles were pretty much well known
from the start; they were only looted because of the US military's sheer
negligence.
> One thing I've wondered, I saw that jet
> fighters and other weapons were buried
> in the desert during the '91 war, was any
> of that shit ever retrieved? I dunno--
Most of it probably was, unless the Pentagon is more laughably and
terrifyingly incompetent than even *I* think it is.
It's not the sort of thing officials like to talk about, but it isn't
hard at all to find big chunks of metal buried under shallow sand. You
don't even need people on the ground to do it.
Correspondent:: König Prüß, GfbAEV
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:54:05 GMT
--------
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
> König Prüß wrote:
> >
> > Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
> >
> >> WASHINGTON - (KRT) - The more than 320 tons of missing Iraqi high
> >> explosives at center stage in the U.S. presidential election are only a
> >> fraction of the weapons-related material that's disappeared in Iraq
> >> since the U.S.-led invasion last year.
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/57obr
> >>
> >> Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
> >> there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
> >> at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
> >> explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
> >> condition of anonymity.
> >
> > Doesn't it beg the question, "Maybe there
> > were WMD's, and where did they go?"
>
> Not really. The locations of the stockpiles were pretty much well known
> from the start; they were only looted because of the US military's sheer
> negligence.
>
> > One thing I've wondered, I saw that jet
> > fighters and other weapons were buried
> > in the desert during the '91 war, was any
> > of that shit ever retrieved? I dunno--
>
> Most of it probably was, unless the Pentagon is more laughably and
> terrifyingly incompetent than even *I* think it is.
>
> It's not the sort of thing officials like to talk about, but it isn't
> hard at all to find big chunks of metal buried under shallow sand. You
> don't even need people on the ground to do it.
Well, by the same token, why is it hard
to find tons of metal oil drums full of RDX?
I doubt that they're all individually stored.
An oil drum would make a magnetometer ping!
Also, I wonder if this was some of the
ordnance produced by the US and sold
to the Iraqis...
The military has a saying for when something
goes missing like this: "If it was up your ass
you'd know where it was!" It could well come
back and bite them in the ass!
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:05:44 GMT
--------
König Prüß wrote:
> Well, by the same token, why is it hard
> to find tons of metal oil drums full of RDX?
> I doubt that they're all individually stored.
> An oil drum would make a magnetometer ping!
Not if the drums are stored in an urban area. Entirely different and
much more complicated problem.
> Also, I wonder if this was some of the
> ordnance produced by the US and sold
> to the Iraqis...
May as well be, since we kept Saddam and his war machine propped up for
years.
> The military has a saying for when something
> goes missing like this: "If it was up your ass
> you'd know where it was!" It could well come
> back and bite them in the ass!
I'd go with "will" rather than "could well."
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 30 Oct 2004 02:19:55 GMT
--------
>Well, by the same token, why is it hard
>to find tons of metal oil drums full of RDX?
>I doubt that they're all individually stored.
>An oil drum would make a magnetometer ping!
>
> Also, I wonder if this was some of the
>ordnance produced by the US and sold
>to the Iraqis...
>
> The military has a saying for when something
>goes missing like this: "If it was up your ass
>you'd know where it was!" It could well come
>back and bite them in the ass!
All High explasive mus be stored in special bunkers that are protected by
lightening rods and made os materials that are non-conductive. The RDX was
stored in cardboard drums. All Military Ammo is shipped either in Wood crates
or in special non-conductive materials to eleminate the possiblity of Static
electricity.
Back in 1979, three people were kileld when on guy placed a live M-72 LAW
anti-tank weapon next to a electric coffee maker. The coffee maker arced over
to the LAW and set off the warhead.
When we went into the ammo points to draw ammo for range fire, there is abox at
the gate that you must deposit "all spark or flame producing items". SOme
places even make you give up your cigarettes.
The bunkers that the Iraqi explosves were stored in look to me to be standard
military ammo storage bunkers.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 30 Oct 2004 02:14:29 GMT
--------
>Most of it probably was, unless the Pentagon is more laughably and
>terrifyingly incompetent than even *I* think it is.
>
I'd like to go on record that both the Then hairman of the Joint Chiefs (Army
Gen Shavalski) and the Marine Corps Commadant both disavowed the whole Iraq
War.
All this fucked up stupidity can be placed dirctly onto Rumsfield and his
little Neo_Con Lackies.
Even a 2LT is smart enough to know that you have to secure your A.O. in a war
zone.
The whole bunch need to be strung up by their testicles. That can be Lyndie
Englands Sentance. Torture Rumsfield until he experieances the pain "equal to
organ failure"
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: washer of kegs
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:16:14 +0200
--------
König Prüß, GfbAEV wrote:
>
> One thing I've wondered, I saw that jet
> fighters and other weapons were buried
> in the desert during the '91 war, was any
> of that shit ever retrieved? I dunno--
They may as well have scrapped the jets or blown them up. All the info I
ever read said they buried them without any thought to protection from sand
or dust ingestion or just the weight of the sand. I saw some pics from a
couple that were excavated by US forces. They were trashed. The best was
when his pilots flew their aircraft to Iran and the Iranians decided to not
return them after the war.
Correspondent:: König Prüß, GfbAEV
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:22:16 GMT
--------
washer of kegs wrote:
> König Prüß, GfbAEV wrote:
>
> >
> > One thing I've wondered, I saw that jet
> > fighters and other weapons were buried
> > in the desert during the '91 war, was any
> > of that shit ever retrieved? I dunno--
>
> They may as well have scrapped the jets or blown them up. All the info I
> ever read said they buried them without any thought to protection from sand
> or dust ingestion or just the weight of the sand. I saw some pics from a
> couple that were excavated by US forces. They were trashed. The best was
> when his pilots flew their aircraft to Iran and the Iranians decided to not
> return them after the war.
Yep, I'd heard that they were sanded-up/trashed
pretty good. But it's sort of an unsettling prospect
if they have a)jets, b) hundreds of tons of HE,
and c) lots of eager kamakazi pilots
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 30 Oct 2004 02:10:40 GMT
--------
> One thing I've wondered, I saw that jet
>fighters and other weapons were buried
>in the desert during the '91 war, was any
>of that shit ever retrieved? I dunno--
The Iraqi's only had a few operational MIG's after Gulf War I. The rest of
their Air Force skedattled over to Iran. Where hte aircraft are still interned.
The planes that were buried were older MIG Foxbats. They are real fast
interceptors. But becuase they were desigend to fly real fast to intercept US
Bombers, theya re not goof "dog fighters". They are also notorious fuel and
maintenaince hogs.
Due to the UN sanctions, Saddam could not get parts for them. So they buried
them. When the US uncoverde them after Gulf War II, they found that the Iraqi's
made no provisions to seal up the planes. So they are all just junk now as
their engines, electronic etc have been distroyed by 10+ years of being buried.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: Zapanaz
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:11:10 -0700
--------
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:31:51 GMT, König Prüß, GfbAEV
wrote:
> Doesn't it beg the question, "Maybe there
>were WMD's, and where did they go?"
A.
That isn't a question
B.
You're an idiot
--
Zapanaz
International Satanic Conspiracy
Customer Support Specialist
http://joecosby.com/
A few guys out there turn into werewolfs
at the sight of erect butt nipples.
- nu-monet
Correspondent:: König Prüß, GfbAEV
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:57:59 GMT
--------
Zapanaz wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:31:51 GMT, König Prüß, GfbAEV
> wrote:
>
> > Doesn't it beg the question, "Maybe there
> >were WMD's, and where did they go?"
>
> A.
>
> That isn't a question
>
> B.
>
> You're an idiot
>
> --
Wassamatta? You skeered?
Terrorists gettin' to ya?
Bwahahahahaha!
--International House of Pancakes
Correspondent:: washer of kegs
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:12:28 +0200
--------
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
> WASHINGTON - (KRT) - The more than 320 tons of missing Iraqi high
> explosives at center stage in the U.S. presidential election are only a
> fraction of the weapons-related material that's disappeared in Iraq
> since the U.S.-led invasion last year.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/57obr
>
> Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
> there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
> at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
> explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
> condition of anonymity.
devils advocate here. Who is to say that the missing munitions and weapons
were not plundered as a part of the insurgency plan to resist the
occupation? After all, you do not just run in and grab an oil drum full of
anything let alone enough to equal 300 tons. Yes it should have been
secured but I really have trouble believing the looters were that organized
without having some sort of leadership to point them in the right
direction.
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:33:17 GMT
--------
washer of kegs wrote:
> Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>
>> WASHINGTON - (KRT) - The more than 320 tons of missing Iraqi high
>> explosives at center stage in the U.S. presidential election are only a
>> fraction of the weapons-related material that's disappeared in Iraq
>> since the U.S.-led invasion last year.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/57obr
>>
>> Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
>> there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
>> at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
>> explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
>> condition of anonymity.
>
> devils advocate here. Who is to say that the missing munitions and weapons
> were not plundered as a part of the insurgency plan to resist the
> occupation? After all, you do not just run in and grab an oil drum full of
> anything let alone enough to equal 300 tons. Yes it should have been
> secured but I really have trouble believing the looters were that organized
> without having some sort of leadership to point them in the right
> direction.
You're not playing devil's advocate; I agree with you. Obviously it
takes organization to make 320 tons of high explosive disappear, before
you even take into account the latest reports that this is just the tip
of the iceberg.
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 30 Oct 2004 02:25:48 GMT
--------
>After all, you do not just run in and grab an oil drum full of
>anything let alone enough to equal 300 tons. Yes it should have been
>secured but I really have trouble believing the looters were that organized
>without having some sort of leadership to point them in the right
>direction.
Agreed. The material has to be handled in a way that does not allow it to be
subject to static electriclity ot other stray voltage.
To safely move that much High Explosives takes trained personnel and good
supervision.
This was not "looters" in the ordinary sense. These were proablly Baathist who
knew where everything was. They can use it against the US troops. Or they can
trade it to others like the Iranians, for weapons.
The iranians would probally looove to get their hands on the machine tools that
were "looted" as well as the RDX for their nulcear program.
I can even see them and the Iraqi's making deal to work together against their
common foe, the US.
Well, if so, Bush is a true Uniter not a Divider!
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: wbarwell
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 02:23:51 -0500
--------
Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
>>After all, you do not just run in and grab an oil drum full of
>>anything let alone enough to equal 300 tons. Yes it should have been
>>secured but I really have trouble believing the looters were that
>>organized without having some sort of leadership to point them in the
>>right direction.
>
> Agreed. The material has to be handled in a way that does not allow it to
> be subject to static electriclity ot other stray voltage.
>
> To safely move that much High Explosives takes trained personnel and good
> supervision.
>
RDX and HMX and for that matter TNT are benign in that regard.
Which is one reason TNT has been a very popular explosive.
> This was not "looters" in the ordinary sense. These were proablly Baathist
> who knew where everything was. They can use it against the US troops. Or
> they can trade it to others like the Iranians, for weapons.
>
> The iranians would probally looove to get their hands on the machine tools
> that were "looted" as well as the RDX for their nulcear program.
>
> I can even see them and the Iraqi's making deal to work together against
> their common foe, the US.
>
> Well, if so, Bush is a true Uniter not a Divider!
>
>
>
>
> MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
>
> "War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
>
> Charles E. Montague
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
Correspondent:: König Prüß, GfbAEV
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:16:06 GMT
--------
wbarwell wrote:
> Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
>
> >>After all, you do not just run in and grab an oil drum full of
> >>anything let alone enough to equal 300 tons. Yes it should have been
> >>secured but I really have trouble believing the looters were that
> >>organized without having some sort of leadership to point them in the
> >>right direction.
> >
> > Agreed. The material has to be handled in a way that does not allow it to
> > be subject to static electriclity ot other stray voltage.
> >
> > To safely move that much High Explosives takes trained personnel and good
> > supervision.
> >
>
> RDX and HMX and for that matter TNT are benign in that regard.
> Which is one reason TNT has been a very popular explosive.
>
We still get some gelignite, blocks about a foot square and 4.5 feet long.
But most of the stuff stored on-site is two part that you mix just prior to
use.
Correspondent:: Zapanaz
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:11:58 -0700
--------
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:16:54 GMT, Cardinal Vertigo
wrote:
>WASHINGTON - (KRT) - The more than 320 tons of missing Iraqi high
>explosives at center stage in the U.S. presidential election are only a
>fraction of the weapons-related material that's disappeared in Iraq
>since the U.S.-led invasion last year.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/57obr
>
>Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
>there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
>at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
>explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
>condition of anonymity.
Those BASTARDS!
they're shooting back!
--
Zapanaz
International Satanic Conspiracy
Customer Support Specialist
http://joecosby.com/
A few guys out there turn into werewolfs
at the sight of erect butt nipples.
- nu-monet
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 30 Oct 2004 18:11:32 GMT
--------
>Those BASTARDS!
>
>they're shooting back!
>
That gratttude! You "liberate: them, provide low paying shit jobs to them to do
luandry for the American contractors whole are now doing you old job at 12
times the pay, they bomb your house based upon shitty intel that Saddam' third
cousin's sister Poodle was sleeping there this eek, they kill you whole family
and between 30,000 to 100,000 thousandds of your fellow country men, and THIS
how they reward you!
Why they don't focus on the good things we have done for them?
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: Zapanaz
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:01:57 -0700
--------
On 30 Oct 2004 18:11:32 GMT, mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard
Skull) wrote:
>>Those BASTARDS!
>>
>>they're shooting back!
>>
>
>That gratttude! You "liberate: them, provide low paying shit jobs to them to do
>luandry for the American contractors whole are now doing you old job at 12
>times the pay, they bomb your house based upon shitty intel that Saddam' third
>cousin's sister Poodle was sleeping there this eek, they kill you whole family
>and between 30,000 to 100,000 thousandds of your fellow country men, and THIS
>how they reward you!
>
>Why they don't focus on the good things we have done for them?
>
>
And you get such pretty sunsets with all those buildings knocked down.
--
Zapanaz
International Satanic Conspiracy
Customer Support Specialist
http://joecosby.com/
the AMAZING thing is that every hour you spend drinking coffee
you make back in the hours that you do not need to sleep.
For coffee is truely the beverage of time control.
The Stinking Bishop Prostata Cantata MP
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:47:22 GMT
--------
Zapanaz wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:16:54 GMT, Cardinal Vertigo
> wrote:
>>Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
>>there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
>>at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
>>explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
>>condition of anonymity.
>
> Those BASTARDS!
>
> they're shooting back!
Shit, that wasn't supposed to happen! They were supposed to welcome us
as liberators and throw flowers at our tanks!
Correspondent:: Zapanaz
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:03:16 -0700
--------
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:47:22 GMT, Cardinal Vertigo
wrote:
>Zapanaz wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:16:54 GMT, Cardinal Vertigo
>> wrote:
>>>Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
>>>there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
>>>at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
>>>explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
>>>condition of anonymity.
>>
>> Those BASTARDS!
>>
>> they're shooting back!
>
>Shit, that wasn't supposed to happen! They were supposed to welcome us
>as liberators and throw flowers at our tanks!
This hungarian phrasebook translates "flowers" as "grenades". That
must be the problem. It also translates "we come in peace" as "my
nipples explode with delight". That can't be good.
--
Zapanaz
International Satanic Conspiracy
Customer Support Specialist
http://joecosby.com/
0x29A - opcode of the beast!
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 31 Oct 2004 20:46:11 GMT
--------
>This hungarian phrasebook translates "flowers" as "grenades". That
>must be the problem. It also translates "we come in peace" as "my
>nipples explode with delight". That can't be good.
The Iraq Phrase for "I will kill you if you fuck my sheep" was mistranleted by
the US as..
"I will welome Halliburtan to take my job form me, and give it to a foreigner
who will do nothing but collect a paycheck. Also feel free to violate all out
social tabbos in regards to sex, women, and samll furry animals."
That is the last tiem we should let Doug Feith do our translating for the US.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: Frere Jean Bleu
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:38:24 +1100
--------
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:47:22 GMT, Cardinal Vertigo
wrote:
>Zapanaz wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:16:54 GMT, Cardinal Vertigo
>> wrote:
>>>Huge amounts of arms and ammunition were stolen from military sites, and
>>>there's "ample evidence" that Iraqi insurgents are firing looted weapons
>>>at U.S. troops and using some of them in car bombs and improvised
>>>explosive devices, said a senior U.S. intelligence official, speaking on
>>>condition of anonymity.
>>
>> Those BASTARDS!
>>
>> they're shooting back!
>
>Shit, that wasn't supposed to happen! They were supposed to welcome us
>as liberators and throw flowers at our tanks!
Sad but true......not available via the usual sources.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11131785%255E2703,00.html
http://tinyurl.com/46o62
The CIA was so convinced Iraqis would welcome US troops that it
proposed smuggling hundreds of small American flags into Iraq ahead of
the 2003 invasion, to give them something to wave at the soldiers, The
New York Times reported yesterday.
The paper said the CIA was planning to capture the event on film and
beam it throughout the Arab world, but the idea was killed by military
officials concerned about the US troops being perceived as an
occupying army.
Fr J B
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 31 Oct 2004 20:46:54 GMT
--------
>The paper said the CIA was planning to capture the event on film and
>beam it throughout the Arab world, but the idea was killed by military
>officials concerned about the US troops being perceived as an
>occupying army.
>
Thank goodness the Arabs never got that idea!
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 31 Oct 2004 20:42:54 GMT
--------
>Shit, that wasn't supposed to happen! They were supposed to welcome us
>as liberators and throw flowers at our tanks!
>
The military is in a fix.
They cannot go too far into the cities with their armor. Outside w few raids
down the main wide avenues, most of the side streets are too narrow for the M-1
to pass through and qill restrict the turrent traverse of teh Bradley. Also in
close quarter battles, armor is only good for providing:
1) Direct fire support for the infantry against hardened targets
2) A big thing for the grunts to take cover behind. A big advantage is the big
things can also move so that the grunts can cross large open kill zones more
safely.
Other than that, tanks are a liablilty in urban warfare,
With all the clutter on a street after a pre-attack bombing/artillary mission,
theya re huindreds of little spots where a fighter can hide and fire a cheap
RPG into the tracks of a armored vehicle. Rendering it inmobile. A tank that
cannot move is called a coffin.
The idea of massive bombing to "soften" up a city is only good if you have
excellent intel as to the possitions of your entended targets. If you do not
get what your shooting at then:
1) You've created a massive hidey hole for the defenders to take cover in. They
will stay there, still & quiet until, like Bunker Hill, they can see the whites
of the GI's eyes.
2) You cuase all sorts of "collateral" damage and cuase casualities to people
who are not fighting ypu, but are trapped in their homes due to fighting. Once
you kill a 14 year old parents, he is not going to through flowers at you. He's
gonna serve up some Molotov Cocktails, shaken, not stirred!
We have created our own trap and strenthened our enemy due to our policies and
attitude towards the Iraqi's.
In 1941, Germany had the war with Russia won. Theyw ere on the outskirts of
Moscow. All the Soviet leders, except Stalin skedadled away.
The peasants of the german occupied areas did welcome the Whermacth as
liberators. That is until the SS Special Action Units came up. Then they Nazi's
turned 6,000,000+ allies into enemies. That Nazi racial/political predujugde
lost WWII for German before the US even got involved.
We have made the same mistake in Iraq and to a lesser state, Afghanistan.
The Bushies Lost the war before the first shot had been fired.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: Cardinal Vertigo
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:00:59 GMT
--------
Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
>>Shit, that wasn't supposed to happen! They were supposed to welcome us
>>as liberators and throw flowers at our tanks!
>>
>
> The military is in a fix.
>
> They cannot go too far into the cities with their armor. Outside w few raids
> down the main wide avenues, most of the side streets are too narrow for the M-1
> to pass through and qill restrict the turrent traverse of teh Bradley. Also in
> close quarter battles, armor is only good for providing:
>
> 1) Direct fire support for the infantry against hardened targets
>
> 2) A big thing for the grunts to take cover behind. A big advantage is the big
> things can also move so that the grunts can cross large open kill zones more
> safely.
>
> Other than that, tanks are a liablilty in urban warfare,
Let me get this straight. The Pentagon is using mind-paralyzingly
advanced $4.3 million ultra-tech tanks for a job that could be performed
better by a rolling heap of scrap metal with a few 7.62mm M240
machineguns on it?
God bless America.
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 02 Nov 2004 23:46:28 GMT
--------
>Let me get this straight. The Pentagon is using mind-paralyzingly
>advanced $4.3 million ultra-tech tanks for a job that could be performed
>better by a rolling heap of scrap metal with a few 7.62mm M240
>machineguns on it?
>
>God bless America.
Yes. They would be better off using armored Hummers with the old 106 Recoiless
rifle mounted on them.
The Fire Power of a tank, the manuverbilty of a wheeled vehicle.
The cloests thing they have to this is ht eStyker. But it sufferd form some of
the same disadvatages as th eBradley/M-1 in urban warfare.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: wbarwell
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 02:21:56 -0500
--------
Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
>>Let me get this straight. The Pentagon is using mind-paralyzingly
>>advanced $4.3 million ultra-tech tanks for a job that could be performed
>>better by a rolling heap of scrap metal with a few 7.62mm M240
>>machineguns on it?
>>
>>God bless America.
>
> Yes. They would be better off using armored Hummers with the old 106
> Recoiless rifle mounted on them.
>
> The Fire Power of a tank, the manuverbilty of a wheeled vehicle.
Easily destroyed by explosives and RPGs.
And somebody has to crawl up there to reload
the recoiless.
As you get sprayed down with automatic fire.
> The cloests thing they have to this is ht eStyker. But it sufferd form
> some of the same disadvatages as th eBradley/M-1 in urban warfare.
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 03 Nov 2004 23:52:14 GMT
--------
>Easily destroyed by explosives and RPGs.
>And somebody has to crawl up there to reload
>the recoiless.
>As you get sprayed down with automatic fire.
>
As are the tanks. But the crew of the hummer have more open view of what is
going on around them. The Tank crew can only see so much from in side. And if
the TC and Loader pop their heads out to get abetter look, they can get wacked.
And the M-1, unlike the old M-60, does not have the troop phone in back. These
allowed the infantry to talk direct to the tank crew and direct fire w/o using
radios. Tanks also have a serious "dead space" next to them in which even a
"unbuttoned" crew cannot see, and the tanks weapons cannot reach. In built up
areas this is also a severe handicap to armor.
But the idea is to have your infantry cover the Hummer while the hummer
provides the Fire Support.
They can do that better with a samller gun like the old 106. The 120mm on the
M-1 was designed to distroy tanks. The concussion form fireing it to too heavy
to use close to infantry in the open.
The 106 was a GP gun that could be used for armored targets as wella s "soft"
targets.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague
Correspondent:: wbarwell
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 02:20:19 -0500
--------
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
> Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
>>>Shit, that wasn't supposed to happen! They were supposed to welcome us
>>>as liberators and throw flowers at our tanks!
>>>
>>
>> The military is in a fix.
>>
>> They cannot go too far into the cities with their armor. Outside w few
>> raids down the main wide avenues, most of the side streets are too narrow
>> for the M-1 to pass through and qill restrict the turrent traverse of teh
>> Bradley. Also in close quarter battles, armor is only good for providing:
>>
>> 1) Direct fire support for the infantry against hardened targets
>>
>> 2) A big thing for the grunts to take cover behind. A big advantage is
>> the big things can also move so that the grunts can cross large open kill
>> zones more safely.
>>
>> Other than that, tanks are a liablilty in urban warfare,
>
> Let me get this straight. The Pentagon is using mind-paralyzingly
> advanced $4.3 million ultra-tech tanks for a job that could be performed
> better by a rolling heap of scrap metal with a few 7.62mm M240
> machineguns on it?
Probably not.
Tonight the opening salvos were lobbed into Faluja.
The city will be besieged and the bombs are in place.
The civilian population has been evacuated.
In about a week, the city wil be abandons, a smoking ruin,
and we will have a bunch of dead GIs and nothing
much to show for it.
Except a smoking ruin and a lot of mad Iraqis.
Who will move right in again and start
planting more bombs.
Its all Bush's
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
Correspondent:: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
Date: 03 Nov 2004 23:58:06 GMT
--------
>Tonight the opening salvos were lobbed into Faluja.
>The city will be besieged and the bombs are in place.
>The civilian population has been evacuated.
>In about a week, the city wil be abandons, a smoking ruin,
>and we will have a bunch of dead GIs and nothing
>much to show for it.
>Except a smoking ruin and a lot of mad Iraqis.
>
And the more GI they Iraqi's kill, the "higher" their standing will be with
thier fellow Iraqi's.
I expect that 50% of the fighters left with "the civilains", the ones that are
left will will be stoked up to be myrted.
And as I said before. All the shelling & bombing will only create lots of
places to hide and ambush you attackers. Sure the Iraqi's will die, but they
will be taking as many Americans as they can with them.
>Who will move right in again and start
>planting more bombs.
>
And will learn form what succeded to make their tactics that much more deadly.
Many of these guys are either vets of the Iran-Iraq war, or have been trained
by one of several Militant Arab goups. Add the fact their are:
1) Protecting their homes
2) Protecting their faith
You have some pretty motivated individuals.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
"War hath no Fury like a non-combatants"
Charles E. Montague