From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
Date: Tue, Dec 2, 2003 11:15 AM
[My comments are after, in brackets.]
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104576,00.html
A Vietnam veteran who exposed more than 1,200 people
trying to capitalize on bogus or inflated Vietnam war
records has been saluted with a military honor.
B.G. "Jug" Burkett received the Army's Distinguished
Civilian Service Award on Monday...
...Not all his research has to do with exposing fake
veterans. In a 1998 book, "Stolen Valor: How the
Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and Its
History," Burkett and co-author Glenna Whitley
challenged the belief that young and poor minority
draftees fought and died in higher numbers in Vietnam.
They found that 75 percent of those killed were
volunteers, not draftees.
[Very interesting. The statistics of the war are as
follows: 52,000 TOTAL died in 10 years. Of those,
~26,000 died of causes other than disease (average
2600 a year.) Based on this new information, the
number of DRAFTEES killed was !6500! TOTAL.
So, why exactly was the typical American young man
TERRIFIED that he would be drafted, sent to Vietnam
and DIE?]
--
Rev. nu-monet
Founder and High Priest
Church of Kali, U.S.A. (Reformed)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com>
ALSO SPRACH nu-monet v6.0:
>[Very interesting. The statistics of the war are
as
>follows: 52,000 TOTAL died in 10 years. Of those,
>~26,000 died of causes other than disease (average
>2600 a year.) Based on this new information, the
>number of DRAFTEES killed was !6500! TOTAL.
>So, why exactly was the typical American young man
>TERRIFIED that he would be drafted, sent to Vietnam
>and DIE?]
From what I've seen of the protests of the time, and
contemporary
media/pop art presentations of the war, much less was
focused on
'peace and love' than was focused on 'you're going to
die over there
is Vietnam'. Did you ever see "Hair"? What's
his name, Berger, gets
sent to Vietnam and in the movie, anyway, INSTANTLY
dies.
Hippy movement or no, it's a lot easier to motivate
people to want to
save their own ass than to care about going out and
blowing somebody
else's off.
All through "Gulf War: Episode 1" I remember
the daily news; the air
force would go in an blow up a few thousand Iraqis,
then the Army
would roll in and shoot a few thousand more, and in
the process maybe
2 or 3 Americans die, and the news would say "ONLY
2 OR 3 PEOPLE HAVE
DIED IN THE WAR SO FAR!"
Somehow this article weirded me out though, I just woke
up from a
dream where I got drafted and was being sent to Germany.
For some
reason they were calling up people who had been in years
ago, it's
been over ten years since I was in. Somehow a war was
starting up in
Germany, due to the Bush administration's policies finally
blowing up
in our faces. So there we are at a post in Germany,
and some
political incident starts up and all of a sudden we
are basically in
enemy territory. All these Army brass/senior NCO's
are running around
giving instructions. We're supposed to stock up now,
I have no idea
what they mean. I think they mean ammunition, but it
turns out the
Germans are cutting off water and supplies, and they
meant we should
stock up on food, so suddenly it's too late and I have
no food.
I manage to stock up on hand grenades though and get
an M203 and ammo
for that. I'm walking around the perimeter of the camp
looking at the
people outside, wondering which one might start shooting
in. I see
two foreign-looking civilians walking around among the
soldiers and I
freak out, I drop and aim my rifle at them and start
yelling to raise
an alarm. I'm hazy on what happens next, it seems like
a fire fight
starts and a bunch of people kill a bunch of other people.
I seem to
remember walking by doorways and lobbing grenades in.
Later I'm walking back and I realize I don't have my
rifle anymore.
Fuck, I better find it. Somehow I walk by the first
sergeant and he
stops me and is talking on and on and on about something.
Finally I
tell him I better go find my gun. Wrong thing to say.
He freaks out
and is yelling at me, don't I KNOW losing my weapon
is the worst
possible thing to do, etc etc etc. I start out feeling
terrible about
this but then I'm like what the fuck, they DRAFTED me,
I don't want to
be here, so I tell him FINE, KICK me the fuck out!
This pretty much
locks him up.
God I don't miss the Army.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
Plus on est de fous, plus on rit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
Joe Cosby wrote:
> Somehow this article weirded me out though, I
> just woke up from a dream where I got drafted
> and was being sent to Germany. For some reason
> they were calling up people who had been in
> years ago, it's been over ten years since I was
> in.
In common parlance, that is what is called a
"future memory." In specific, it's when the
Allemaine-Franco-British Alliance went to war
with the Ispania-Italia-Turkey (and Poland)
Federation.
Well, the US was neutral even though President
Cheney ordered the Inactive Reserve call-up and
reactivated all our old bases in Germany and
England, leaving several divisions of Active
Reserves and National Guard to defend the US-
Canada border. But then the Italians released
the hallucinogenic brain plague on France and
everything got kinda weird.
The US soldiers decided to secure their bases
against everybody who didn't speak English,
and then President Cheney died and that Vice
President guy, Whatsisname, took over. Well,
he didn't fuck around, conquered Mexico in a
heartbeat and enlisted every Mexican male to
go fight the Chinese.
Germany was pretty depopulated by then. Most
of the US soldiers had given up, married German
girls and were trying to learn to like "Cordon
Blue" and liver sausages. They were a write
off.
A few made it to the Kingdom of England and
crashed with the Euro-subs, figuring that even
"William the Terrible" and boiled food was
better than polka music.
--
"YOU BELONG TO US NOW!"
"GET DOWN WITH MY SICKNESS!!"
--Kino Beman, brand name
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com>
ALSO SPRACH nu-monet v6.0:
>Joe Cosby wrote:
>> Somehow this article weirded me out though,
I
>> just woke up from a dream where I got drafted
>> and was being sent to Germany. For some reason
>> they were calling up people who had been in
>> years ago, it's been over ten years since I
was
>> in.
>
>In common parlance, that is what is called a
>"future memory." In specific, it's when
the
>Allemaine-Franco-British Alliance went to war
>with the Ispania-Italia-Turkey (and Poland)
>Federation.
>
>Well, the US was neutral even though President
>Cheney ordered the Inactive Reserve call-up and
>reactivated all our old bases in Germany and
>England, leaving several divisions of Active
>Reserves and National Guard to defend the US-
>Canada border. But then the Italians released
>the hallucinogenic brain plague on France and
>everything got kinda weird.
>
>The US soldiers decided to secure their bases
>against everybody who didn't speak English,
>and then President Cheney died and that Vice
>President guy, Whatsisname, took over. Well,
>he didn't fuck around, conquered Mexico in a
>heartbeat and enlisted every Mexican male to
>go fight the Chinese.
>
MEXICANS BACK TO CHINA!
>Germany was pretty depopulated by then. Most
>of the US soldiers had given up, married German
>girls and were trying to learn to like "Cordon
>Blue" and liver sausages. They were a write
>off.
>
>A few made it to the Kingdom of England and
>crashed with the Euro-subs, figuring that even
>"William the Terrible" and boiled food
was
>better than polka music.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
"Mind control is being able to make all the voices
in your head take
turns." (from alt.slack)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Reverend Vertigo <jhobbs@myrealbox.com>
nu-monet v6.0 wrote:
> [Very interesting. The statistics of the war are
as
> follows: 52,000 TOTAL died in 10 years. Of those,
> ~26,000 died of causes other than disease (average
> 2600 a year.) Based on this new information, the
> number of DRAFTEES killed was !6500! TOTAL.
> So, why exactly was the typical American young
man
> TERRIFIED that he would be drafted, sent to Vietnam
> and DIE?]
I don't know about the typical American young man, or
even if there is such
a thing. But I'd imagine if you were morally or ideologically
opposed to a
war, the prospect of losing your life fighting that
war (against your will,
to boot) would be pretty terrifying.
Besides, I don't think there were accurate figures until
long after the war.
All Johnny 1-A knew was that some of his friends were
"over there," that he
heard about casualties every day, and that someone he
knew, or at least knew
OF, died "over there" often enough for it
to be disturbing.
I imagine that "dying in 'Nam" was a pretty
unappealing prospect regardless
of whether the means was an NVA bullet, a VC booby trap,
friendly fire, or
malaria. So the distinction between being killed and
dying of disease is
unnecessary, methinks. You still left and never came
back.
--
Dean for America
http://www.deanforamerica.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
But that was the gist of the argument. It *was*
attractive enough for *volunteers* to go there,
enough so that they, not draftees, suffered 75%
of the casualties.
So why were young men terrified? LIES. There
were unscrupulous people who *wanted* to scare
them, mostly for political purposes. I remember
the tale of a college campus where a radical
instructor gave his male students a proposition:
"Either you go out there and join an anti-war
protest, or I will FLUNK you in this course, and
you will lose your draft deferment, and you will
be drafted, go to Vietnam, and die!" (as reported
by a cousin of mine, first hand, U of Illinois.)
And I ALSO remember how Walter Cronkite portrayed
the Tet Offensive as some kind of great military
VICTORY for the Viet Cong, despite the fact that
they got slaughtered and didn't accomplish a single
one of their objectives.
And I ALSO remember the CONGRESSMEN who whined
about the war and tried to make us lose by setting
up irrational situations like "no-fire zones"
and
overriding military directives with their stupid
ideas, plus *they* were the ones who demanded
endless body counts and shit like that.
--
"I can imagine a LOT when it comes
to unimaginable power."
-- nu-monet
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com>
They got slaughtered all through the war, but still
ended up winning
it. War IS politics.
Which is why it is not worth fighting.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
World Children's Day is a trademark of the McDonald's
Corporation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Kevin Cunningham" <smskjc@mindspring.com>
Look, the whole point of the vile war in Vietnam was...
nothing. There was
no reason to be there whether volunteer or draftee.
There was no political
reason or national defense reason or any other reason
for the Vietnam War.
Rev. Doc. Junior Mints
Anti-Pope of Atlanta
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
Kevin Cunningham wrote:
> Look, the whole point of the vile war in Vietnam
> was... nothing. There was no reason to be there
> whether volunteer or draftee. There was no
> political reason or national defense reason or
> any other reason for the Vietnam War.
The point of the Vietnam War was that it was Korea,
part II. The nation and its two sides were pawns
to the US, the Soviet Union, and the PRC in the
modern version of "The Great Game". The West
was
aware of this even before WWII, and one of the
motives of Truman dropping the bomb on Japan was
to intimidate the Russians from claiming half the
country, like Korea and Vietnam.
The Russians, in particular, were obsessively
interested in increasing their sphere of influence,
that is, in taking areas that were neutral or pro-
West, and making them communist states that were
anti-West and would act as little colonies to
support Russia.
So Russia actively encouraged "revolutionary"
movements all over the place, trying to disrupt
otherwise peaceful nations. By any definition,
this was Russia declaring aggresive covert war.
And the US acted to counter that aggression, in
good places and in shitty ones. And it continued
long after Vietnam, with Jimmy Carter "losing"
FIVE countries to communist takeovers.
In the final analysis, people who whine and bitch
about Vietnam were and are clueless. The Vietnam
War ended when Ronald Reagan destroyed the Soviet
Union.
--
Rev. nu-monet
Founder and High Priest
Church of Kali, U.S.A. (Reformed)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com>
ALSO SPRACH nu-monet v6.0:
>Kevin Cunningham wrote:
>>
>> Look, the whole point of the vile war in Vietnam
>> was... nothing. There was no reason to be
there
>> whether volunteer or draftee. There was no
>> political reason or national defense reason
or
>> any other reason for the Vietnam War.
>>
>The point of the Vietnam War was that it was Korea,
>part II. The nation and its two sides were pawns
>to the US, the Soviet Union, and the PRC in the
>modern version of "The Great Game". The
West was
>aware of this even before WWII, and one of the
>motives of Truman dropping the bomb on Japan was
>to intimidate the Russians from claiming half the
>country, like Korea and Vietnam.
>
>The Russians, in particular, were obsessively
>interested in increasing their sphere of influence,
>that is, in taking areas that were neutral or pro-
>West, and making them communist states that were
>anti-West and would act as little colonies to
>support Russia.
>
>So Russia actively encouraged "revolutionary"
>movements all over the place, trying to disrupt
>otherwise peaceful nations. By any definition,
>this was Russia declaring aggresive covert war.
The Russians and the Americans alike came offering peace
and utopia
and in the process started wars killing millions and
long-term
destabilising their nations because you CAN'T HAVE -their-
brand of
peace and utopia.
There's nothing more dangerous than a person who truly believes.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
The inside of the pumpkin represents the sin in our
life.
When we ask Christ to forgive our sins, HE "cleans
us out"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)
>But that was the gist of the argument. It *was*
>attractive enough for *volunteers* to go there,
>enough so that they, not draftees, suffered 75%
>of the casualties.
i have a feeling those numbers are suspect.
What do they consider volunteers? People who signed
up for the Military, people
who volunteered for the Marines, Airborne, Special Ops?
All Officers could be considered volunteers. All Pilots
could be considered
Volunteers as well. That would include Crew Chiefs and
door gunners on choppers
All NCO's could be considered Volunteers. Usuallu the
Draftees got no higher to
Specialist-4. Only people who re-uped got Hard Stripe
Corperal or Sergeant.
>And I ALSO remember how Walter Cronkite portrayed
>the Tet Offensive as some kind of great military
>VICTORY for the Viet Cong, despite the fact that
>they got slaughtered and didn't accomplish a single
>one of their objectives.
Yes, but the fact was the Authorities had been saying
that the war was almost
won and claimed that the Viet Cong (who were never a
real military threat) and
the NVA were on the retreat.
The only reason the North Failed in the Tet Offensive
was the RVN Army actually
showed up.
The RVN had a leadership problem. Every time a Commander
would gain fame due to
victories, he would be releived of command (or worse)
as the RVN government
geared that he could challange them and throw them out.
This tended to squash
all initiative on Officers and NCO in the RVN army.
When the RVN Army had
competant leadership. It was morethen capible of kicking
even the best NVA
units butts into next week.
>And I ALSO remember the CONGRESSMEN who whined
>about the war and tried to make us lose by setting
>up irrational situations like "no-fire zones"
and
>overriding military directives with their stupid
>ideas, plus *they* were the ones who demanded
>endless body counts and shit like that.
That was MacNamara's doing. Mac was a genius at Logistics.
In WWII he was aone
of the guys who planned and mobilzed US's industry into
war production. He was
brought in by JFK becuase of these skills. IN the Ike
Years, the DoD had
suffered major scandles due to weapons procurment programs
that spent tons of
money for weapons that were worthless. (The Air Force
being the major culprit)
When prior to the start of the Vietnam war, the JCS
ran several war games that
proved that South Vietnam could not be saved under it
present Government. But
each Chief told Mac (and LBJ) that HIS Service could
win the war for them! The
Air Force told tem that they could bomb the North into
submission, The
Navy/Marines said that two carrier groups adn two Marine
Division would win it.
The Army said it was a bad idea to go in, but if we
do, the Army can win it.
(all this is documented in the book "Derelection
of Duty")
Since Vietnam was a "counter-insergancy" war,
and the VC would frequently use
civilain activities to mask their movments, in the Early
days many civilains
were killed from battles and from "miscommunications".
The "no-fire zones" were
set up in the Period in which the US was trying to "win
the hearts and minds"
of teh South. It was an effort to reduce the civilains
killed. Although, by the
time coming into Tet any civilian killed was listed
a VC.
The "body counts" were form Mac's caculation
that after we killed "x" amount of
North troops, the US would win. This lead to the situations
listed above as
well as inflated counts, as that was what the brass
wanted to hear. If they
were happy, they were not on your ass.
Coming into the Vietnam war, the Army was suffering
from poor leadership,
especially at the company/Platoon level.
In the 1950's, some DoD Civilains (one of whom was Rumsfield
by the way)
decided that the next war was going to be a nuclear
war. So all active
Divisions were chnaged form teh classic Regimental system
to a "Pentagon"
system. The Division, instead of having 3 regiments,
now had 5 "Battle
Commands." Each BC was lead by a Brigadier General.
The BC was set up so that
intermediate levels of Command were eliminated. The
BC's Company Commanders
reported directly to the one star general. This lead
to company commanders not
trying to be bold (and possible screwing up and drawing
the wrath of that
general) but they got into the CYA mode. By 1963 or
so. They relaized that the
'Pentagon" system was effective in only one thing.
Making LOTS of General
Positions. The Army found that it small unit commanders
had no leadership
skills as they did not need them The General told them
waht to do and when to
do it!
By the time the Army went to Vietnam, the old CO's were
now Battalion
commanders and staff officers. Their poor leadership
skills effeected a lot of
what happened in that war.
MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com>
ALSO SPRACH Rev. Richard Skull:
>>But that was the gist of the argument. It *was*
>>attractive enough for *volunteers* to go there,
>>enough so that they, not draftees, suffered
75%
>>of the casualties.
>>
>i have a feeling those numbers are suspect.
Any way you look at it, less Americans died in the whole
of Vietnam
than die in car accidents in a typical year.
But people still LOVE their cars.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Doktor DynaSoar <targeting@OMCL.mil>
"nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
wrote:
>[My comments are after, in brackets.]
>
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104576,00.html
>
>A Vietnam veteran who exposed more than 1,200 people
>trying to capitalize on bogus or inflated Vietnam
war
>records has been saluted with a military honor.
>B.G. "Jug" Burkett received the Army's
Distinguished
>Civilian Service Award on Monday...
>
>...Not all his research has to do with exposing
fake
>veterans. In a 1998 book, "Stolen Valor: How
the
>Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and
Its
>History," Burkett and co-author Glenna Whitley
>challenged the belief that young and poor minority
>draftees fought and died in higher numbers in Vietnam.
>They found that 75 percent of those killed were
>volunteers, not draftees.
>
>[Very interesting. The statistics of the war are
as
>follows: 52,000 TOTAL died in 10 years. Of those,
>~26,000 died of causes other than disease (average
>2600 a year.) Based on this new information, the
>number of DRAFTEES killed was !6500! TOTAL.
>So, why exactly was the typical American young man
>TERRIFIED that he would be drafted, sent to Vietnam
>and DIE?]
The typical American young man at the time was NOT "terrified".
Not wanting to is not the same as being terrified.
The chances of dying were greater if you went than if
you didn't. The
amount greater, due to how you got there, is irrelevant
the fact. And
in case you didn't bother with the arithmetic, 1 out
of 8 of those
killed was a draftee. That's not dismissable odds. 6500
in 10 years is
650 per year, or nearly 2 per day. Fuck the chances,
that's two dead
people per day. Who wants to be one of them?
I'm not sure where the "belief" came from,
but it's apparently new. No
one thought that being a minority had anything to do
with getting
killed. It certainly had something to do with getting
drafted, because
minorities were generally poorer and couldn't afford
college (a.k.a.
"deferment").
When the mediadroids tried to start that same shit during
Gulf War 1,
they tried to play up to Colin Powell and asked him
why there were so
many "minorities" in the war. He told them
"They probably enlisted,
because they needed a job. Just like me." That
shut them up pronto,
and taught them that Powel doesn't play the race card;
he doesn't need
to.
BTW, I burned my draft card and volunteered in the same
week. I didn't
mind enlisting, but I'd be damned if I'd let someone
make me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: William Barwell <wbarwell@mungged.mylinuxisp.com>
nu-monet v6.0 wrote:
> [My comments are after, in brackets.]
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104576,00.html
> [Very interesting. The statistics of the war are
as
> follows: 52,000 TOTAL died in 10 years. Of those,
> ~26,000 died of causes other than disease (average
> 2600 a year.) Based on this new information, the
> number of DRAFTEES killed was !6500! TOTAL.
> So, why exactly was the typical American young
man
> TERRIFIED that he would be drafted, sent to Vietnam
> and DIE?]
Ask AWOL Bush, Pat Buchanan, Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney
and the other well
known chicken hawks.
--
Bush! Chimp or chump?
Cheerful Charlie
Original file name: Vietnam War news fro#1AD161.txt - converted on Saturday, 25 September 2004, 02:05
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