From: Cardinal Vertigo <vertigo@alexandria.cc>
Date: Wed, Jul 21, 2004
Were any of you involved at all with SDS or the Weathermen
before they
went underground? Did/do you know anyone who was connected
with them at
all?
Even if not, do you remember anything about SDS, the
Weathermen, or the
Weather Underground? What did you think of them, if
you thought
anything of them at all?
I ask because it was all before my time and they ain't
in the public
schools' history books at all, even though I'm told
Ted Ka... the
Unabomber is.
I just saw "The Weather Underground," and
it was the first I had ever
heard of them. I just thought it was that silly website
with the ads
and the forecasts.
--
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion;
the former begets
knowledge, the latter ignorance."
- Hippocrates
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "nu-monet v7.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
> Were any of you involved at all with SDS or the
> Weathermen before they went underground? Did/do
> you know anyone who was connected with them at
> all?
I knew a guy who was an SD. He didn't like to talk
about the Sicherheitsdienst though.
--
I don't know what you're talking about.
I've never met you before in my life.
That story sounds like utter bullshit.
I wasn't there and it wasn't me.
I am *not* in denial. Shut up.
--nu-monet
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "iDRMRSR" <idrmrsr@subgenius.com>
Umm, I'm old enuff to remember the SDS. I think there
was a chapter at CWRU
here in Cleveland (which stands for Christ What a Rotten
University). A
far, far, far left campus to be sure.
We once had to duck for cover when the Cleveland Mounted
Police (yes,
horsies) charged down Euclid avenue to break up some
kind of demonstration.
I was working for the college administration (yes, I
was a computer
programmer for the man) and that was back in 1969 or
1970, circa the famous
Kent State target practice.
As I recall, we office workers went out on the campus
lawn to viddie the
spectacle of horses charging students. But this was
in the day of hot pants
and no bras. Thus far less attention was paid to the
politics, than
perhaps, say, the sight of some Hippie getting a blowjob
out in the open
from a hot panted lass.
And that's how I shall ever remember those days, splendor in the grass.
Prolly won't find that in any history books, either.
[*]
-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Anachron" <AnachronNospam@neo.rr.com>
Didn't the Weathermen blow up Rodan's "The Thinker"
bronze at the Cleveland
Museum of Art? It's still there with it's shattered
feet thinking about
what the hell it all meant. Right now he's thinking
"Don't these assholes
learn anything from history? Anther perceived threat
another stupid war to
keep us safe. And here I sit with no feet."
--
Rev. Anachron
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Revi Shankar" <me3@privacy.net>
Holy crap. I just had nearly the identical conversation
just a few days ago
on a bus in Buffalo. Even with the closing remarks:
"So, now the Thinker is
sitting there thinking about why it got blowed up."
Yes, "The Thinker" was blowed up, and was
left exactly as it is. Dunno who
dun it.
And YES I have usenet access again. For what reason, I don't know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Anachron" <AnachronNospam@neo.rr.com>
Prime example of Synchronicity. Talk about something
and within a short
time the topic shows up again. This is not that amazing
in itself exept
when the topic is very obscure and the odds of it showing
up in two
conversations seems unlikely.
1. The state or fact of being synchronous or simultaneous;
synchronism.
2. Coincidence of events that seem to be meaningfully
related, conceived in
the theory of Carl Jung as an explanatory principle
on the same order as
causality.
--
Rev. Anachron
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kdetal@aol.com (KD et al)
Vertigo writes:
>Were any of you involved at all with SDS or the
Weathermen before they
>went underground? Did/do you know anyone who was
connected with them at
>all?
>
>Even if not, do you remember anything about SDS,
the Weathermen, or the
>Weather Underground? What did you think of them,
if you thought
>anything of them at all?
>
>I ask because it was all before my time and they
ain't in the public
>schools' history books at all, even though I'm told
Ted Ka... the
>Unabomber is.
>
>I just saw "The Weather Underground,"
and it was the first I had ever
>heard of them. I just thought it was that silly
website with the ads
>and the forecasts.
I think I caught "The Weather Underground" on PBS not long ago.
I'm not aging, exhippy, farty, or involved with any
of the above but I had
heard of them. The weathermen and black panthers through
aging counter culture
types; the SDS because I read a book called "The
Strawberry Statement" when I
was a young and impressionable idealist. Its a rather
interesting book-
readable, and a first hand account of a guy at Columbia
involved in some of the
stuff of those days.
Apparently they made a movie based on it, but I never saw that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cardinal Vertigo <vertigo@alexandria.cc>
KD et al wrote:
[snip]
> I think I caught "The Weather Underground"
on PBS not long ago.
>
> I'm not aging, exhippy, farty, or involved with
any of the above
Then you're a hippie.
> but I had
> heard of them. The weathermen and black panthers
through aging counter culture
> types; the SDS because I read a book called "The
Strawberry Statement" when I
> was a young and impressionable idealist
[snip]
So what are you now?
--
"It is enough that the people know there was an
election. The people
who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count
the votes
decide everything."
- Josef Stalin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kdetal@aol.com (KD et al)
>> I'm not aging, exhippy, farty, or involved
with any of the above
>
>Then you're a hippie.
Hell no. If I was a hippie, I'd be driving an SUV to
my LLC, playing stocks,
throwing grecian formula on my hair, raising my yuppie
kids to 'just say no'
and convincing myself that I haven't sold out my soul
while I reminisce to the
Grateful Dead in the background.
>> but I had
>> heard of them. The weathermen and black panthers
through aging counter
>culture
>> types; the SDS because I read a book called
"The Strawberry Statement" when
>I was a young and impressionable idealist
>[snip]
>So what are you now?
A grown up impressionable idealist
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cardinal Vertigo <vertigo@alexandria.cc>
KD et al wrote:
> Hell no. If I was a hippie, I'd be driving an SUV
to my LLC, playing stocks,
> throwing grecian formula on my hair, raising my
yuppie kids to 'just say no'
> and convincing myself that I haven't sold out my
soul while I reminisce to the
> Grateful Dead in the background.
No, that's an ex-hippie. I'm using "hippie"
here to represent a
lifestyle, not a generation.
I have hippie friends who are too young to remember
the Reagan
administration. And THEY VOTE.
--
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
- Samuel Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kdetal@aol.com (KD et al)
>No, that's an ex-hippie. I'm using "hippie"
here to represent a
>lifestyle, not a generation.
>
>I have hippie friends who are too young to remember
the Reagan
>administration. And THEY VOTE.
Ok. I'm still not a hippie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Baldin Pramer <baldin@mailtoworld.com>
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
> Were any of you involved at all with SDS or the
Weathermen before they
> went underground? Did/do you know anyone who was
connected with them at
> all?
We had a "chapter" at our high school, and
we put out an underground
newspaper called the SDS Newsletter. We invited a *real*
SDS guy to
speak at our school, and this being the era of tolerance
for otherly
ideas, our vice principal let him speak. After his speech,
our newspaper
was banned from being distributed on school grounds,
and they wouldn't
let us use school property to have our meetings anymore.
We kept publishing it and distributed it off campus,
but soon got tired
of thinking up different ways to destroy society. The
last issue
contained a story about the school principal being assassinated
during
an assembly, complete with the names of the assassins,
kids who worked
for the paper.
Unbeknownst to most of us, the two "assassins"
had planned to
"assassinate" the principal for real. The
day the paper was distributed
*was* an assembly, and as the principal was exhorting
us to behave or
something, two black clad figures with ROTC practice
rifles ran down the
aisle, jumped on stage and pretended to kill the principal.
Of course,
all the freaks had already read the story in the newsletter,
and they
were delighted. The principal, teachers and staff were
horrified, and
the two were hauled away and expelled, never to return
again until they
received counseling.
> Even if not, do you remember anything about SDS,
the Weathermen, or the
> Weather Underground? What did you think of them,
if you thought
> anything of them at all?
I thought they were a bunch of assholes for blowing
up innocent people,
but I liked hanging out with a dangerous crowd, and
some of the radical
chicks were hot. They were impressed because of my knowledge
of
explosives and illegal drug manufacture. It was the
perfect place for a
high school chemistry nerd longing to fit in with *anyone*.
> I ask because it was all before my time and they
ain't in the public
> schools' history books at all, even though I'm
told Ted Ka... the
> Unabomber is.
>
> I just saw "The Weather Underground,"
and it was the first I had ever
> heard of them. I just thought it was that silly
website with the ads
> and the forecasts.
They were real; real serious with really stupid political
philosophy,
but they also were against some seriously bad stuff
the government was
doing at the time.
How was the film?
--
Baldin Pramer, Ph.D., L.S.M.F.T.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ankara" <uh-huh@somewhere.com>
Yeah the thing about them that I found ironic was their
eventual
involvement with the black panthers..(upper-class white
kids)
who eventually killed a black man whose only crime was
he was driving the armored car that they wanted to rob
to *fund the movement*
isn't THAT funny...they were all about abolish everything
civilized, and treat the black man as an equal
then they kill one to steal the *money*
(fuck uncle sam....oh but we need his GREENBACKS)
reminds me of that vice president of PETA
who doesn't *feel* like a hypocrite cause she uses
insulin (animal testing- animal product)
"I need MY life to fight for the animals"
by the way the reason all the recent TV on
the weather underground recently, was
the woman who had the longest sentence
for the armored car robbery...just got paroled...
http://www.upstatefilms.org/weather/guardobserver.html
Ankara
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cardinal Vertigo <vertigo@alexandria.cc>
Baldin Pramer wrote:
[snip]
> They were real; real serious with really stupid
political philosophy,
> but they also were against some seriously bad stuff
the government was
> doing at the time.
>
> How was the film?
Pretty good. I came away with basically the same impression
you just
stated.
--
"If your experiment needs statistics, then you
ought to have done a
better experiment."
- Ernest Rutherford
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bebop <be@bop.boop>
Cardinal Vertigo <vertigo@alexandria.cc> wrote:
>Even if not, do you remember anything about SDS,
the Weathermen, or the
>Weather Underground? What did you think of them,
if you thought
>anything of them at all?
>
>I ask because it was all before my time and they
ain't in the public
>schools' history books at all, even though I'm told
Ted Ka... the
>Unabomber is.
Even on this, Google is your friend. As a quick sample,
it turned up
this:
http://www.lib.virginia.edu/speccol/exhibits/sixties/radical.html
Lordy, how does one esplain it to a young slacker punk
trapped in
alt.slack, does the universe contain enough time? I
mean, on an
Internet newsgroup, at the dawn of these New Dark Ages?
Can it really
be expressed in bits?
Not that I have any particular insight. I suppose I
was there,
y'know, I mean in the general area, who wasn't, but
what it meant to
be a Democrat, or a Republican, these weird times we're
in now, the
story sounds the same but the feel of it just ain't
at all the same,
nohow. The context of the times, that's what you need
to get into, I
mean, inspiration from a Bob Dylan song, how to explain
that in the
age of "Oops I did it again" and a bloated
Linda Ronstadt? I mean,
she was there, too, y'know, and she's still fighting
the good fight in
her own special way.
It was all so much more serious then, but somehow less
so, too, what
with nuclear annihilation hanging over everything.
Hunter S.
Thompson's best book was "Fear and Loathing on
the Campaign Trail
1972", the preceeding "Las Vegas" book
is good, too, though what a
young punk gets out of it, reading it today, Bob only
knows,
Jefferson Airplane on yer iPod.
So wot about these WeatherPersons who took it all very
seriously
indeed, and were sure that what we all needed, what
was good for us,
was Revolution? Were they right? Did they already
win or lose or are
they still out there, doing it? Is their victory upon
us, immanent,
unstoppable, or has it already come and gone? Were
they pink and/or
pink, or would they be, if they only could be? Or have
they all sold
out, or should they, or could they, or were they even
worth bribing?
I mean, these Islamic jihadis, they think they have
a corner on the
market? You want a little tiny metaphor, a simile,
a homily, maybe
the SDS was the American jihad, I mean, they were doing
it for our own
good, for purity, for transcendance, and what's the
deal about virgins
in the age of birth control anyway? When it comes right
down to it,
98.44% of these so-called revolutionaries had the sense
to bag it all
and get back on with their lives, that's another point
worth
remembering.
Don't worry about it, just for asking your name has
been added to a
List, that's how we do it these days, just as that's
how they did it
on those days, find me a revolution that will do away
with that,
wouldya.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bobdiddley@aol.com (3-D Bob)
Vertigo asked:
>Even if not, do you remember anything about SDS,
the Weathermen, or the
>Weather Underground? What did you think of them,
if you thought
>anything of them at all?
There was a time when it seemed that they were an integral
part of 'the
Revolution'. I was always more drawn by the non-violent
artistic approach. The
Beatles, as opposed to the Stones or the MC5. The Weathermen
seemed to earn
their keep when they helped bust Leary out of prison,
but even that degenerated
into foggy dispute.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" - Dylan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cardinal Vertigo <vertigo@alexandria.cc>
3-D Bob wrote:
> =========================================================
> "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know."
> -Ralph Waldo Emerson, from his journal (1843)
The whole quote is "Immortality. I notice that
as soon as writers broach
this question they begin to quote. I hate quotation.
Tell me what you know."
Emerson also wrote "By necessity, by proclivity,
and by delight, we all
quote," and "Some men's words I remember so
well that I must often use
them to express my thought. Yes, because I perceive
that we have heard
the same truth, but they have heard it better."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Rev. Ivan Stang" <stang@subgeniusNOSPUM.com>
Cardinal Vertigo <vertigo@alexandria.cc> wrote:
> Were any of you involved at all with SDS or the
Weathermen before they
> went underground? Did/do you know anyone who was
connected with them at
> all?
>
> Even if not, do you remember anything about SDS,
the Weathermen, or the
> Weather Underground? What did you think of them,
if you thought
> anything of them at all?
>
> I ask because it was all before my time and they
ain't in the public
> schools' history books at all, even though I'm
told Ted Ka... the
> Unabomber is.
>
> I just saw "The Weather Underground,"
and it was the first I had ever
> heard of them. I just thought it was that silly
website with the ads
> and the forecasts.
By the time I figured out the hippies and wanted to
be one, it was too
late; "the Movement" had obviously already
become a beer commercial by
1971, dooming my high school graduating class to generally
be of the
"70s Drug Brothers" ilk rather than the "Sixties
Radicals" we were sort
of belatedly emulating. (Thus giving rise to Punk among
those
disappointed with the misfired Hippie approach. Too
bad Punk ALSO
became a beer commercial within a couple of years.)
When I got to U.T. in Austin in 1971 I was interested
in being a
Radical, and I started going to meetings and hanging
around with
hipsters who lived in shitty communes and talked about
Chairman Mao and
how they went to Cuba to help The Workers harvest sugar
cane and to
show their Solidarity and all. I got disaffected with
them pretty fast
because they were all really just spoiled rich kids
who didn't know
jack shit. Being radical was just one way to be "cool"
and get laid if
you weren't tall or good looking. Most of those radicals
work in their
dads' law offices now.
My father was in Naval Intelligence then and told me
some stuff which
at the time I considered to be as silly as the nonsense
he told me
about marijuana. He said that if I became interested
in radical
politics that I should NOT join the SDS -- not because
it was bad
commie left wing stuff, but because the Students for
a Democratic
Society was in fact 50% agent provocateurs! It was heavily
infiltrated
by various types of government agents. He was urging
me not to get
involved with something that was basically a TRAP, a
mechanism for
keeping TABS on students and marginals who might step
past the hot-air
stage and advance to the bank-robbing stage, which the
Weathermen
actually did.
I saw SDS recruiting happen but I never saw any sign
of actual real
Weathermen. They were a legend -- not not necessarily
beloved by their
fellow anti-war protestors. Most kids in them days were
just like now,
very idealistic and peace-and-love, and didn't see murder
and bombing
as being good for The Cause.
Needless to say, since no one ever was able to agree
on just what The
Cause was exactly, it remained like it is now, a big
balloon full of
talk from know-it-alls. Rare indeed is the blabbermouth
who goes the
distance and RUNS FOR OFFICE.
What I saw a lot more of were the Yippies. They were
radicals who were
into pranksterism but not violence, Abbie Hoffman being
the most famous
of them and Paul Krassner the least obnoxious. I liked
their general
approach, but the only time I ever did anything with
them was their
"Rock Against Reagan" thing at the 1984 Republican
Convention in
Dallas. We opened for The Dead Kennedies and later went
to a private
party at Molly Ivans' house where I met the Yippie leaders.
They were
such egotistical assholes that I lost all interest in
the Yippies.
What I read more was Black Panthers stuff. Eldridge
Cleaver and Malcolm
X and like that. In fact I read a lot of that stuff
in HIGH SCHOOL. I
was intrigued by the Panthers etc. because I used to
think, "Man, if I
was a Negro, I'd probably be about as pissed off as
those guys."
History proved the Panthers to be at least as fucked
up as every other
radical group, maybe a lot worse.
ACTUAL SUCCESSFUL APPLICATION OF HIPPIE PRINCIPLES HAS
OCCURED,
however. A good example of Hippie philosophy made practical
would be
The Farm in Tennessee, practically the one commune that
still works. It
was started by an ex military guy named Stephen Gaskin
and his friends.
I see Gaskin at almost every Starwood (he's another
regular guest
speaker) and from what I've been able to tell, he's
BUILT HIS OWN SHIP
pretty well.
I gave up on OVERTHROWING the Conspiracy when I was
about 18 and had my
first grunt job among grunts. It might eventually collapse
of its own
weight but in the meantime the best thing for the SubGenius
to do is to
try to be as INDEPENDENT of it as possible. To build
your own ship that
stays under their radar, but THRIVES somehow. Gaskin
managed to do
that, but among other things it required good diplomacy
and working
with the local Normals rather than against them.
God damn it.
--
4th Stangian Orthodox MegaFisTemple Lodge of the Wrath
of Dobbs Yeti,
Resurrected (Rev. Ivan Stang, prop.)
PRABOB
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Alex@foogle.fargle (Alex)
Rev. Ivan Stang <stang@subgeniusNOSPUM.com> wrote:
>By the time I figured out the hippies and wanted
to be one, it was too
>late; "the Movement" had obviously already
become a beer commercial by
>1971, dooming my high school graduating class to
generally be of the
>"70s Drug Brothers" ilk rather than the
"Sixties Radicals" we were sort
>of belatedly emulating. (Thus giving rise to Punk
among those
>disappointed with the misfired Hippie approach.
Too bad Punk ALSO
>became a beer commercial within a couple of years.)
What I wonder is what do kids turn to now for pre-packaged
rebellion? Do
they even bother anymore, or are they too busy pursuing
bling-bling
MTV-style fantasies? Or maybe all the "terrorisim"
psyops has them
scared shitless and hoping the police state arrives
sooner than later.
I mean, they all didn't just become hip to all the non-conformist
conformist traps the con's laid, have they?
In a way, it's good to grow up with blatant con leadership,
otherwise,
you might be conviced that just because a feel-good
guy is in office,
somehow they're going to stop playing their behind-the-scenes
games.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|\ | ( \/ |\ |V| |\ -|- |) | \/ | | | |\ ( / /\ |V|
|-||_ ( /\ |/ @| | |-| | |\ | /\ |^| | |/ ( .\ \/ |
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "nu-monet v7.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
Alex wrote:
> What I wonder is what do kids turn to now
> for pre-packaged rebellion?
Even during the harshest years of Stalinism in
Russia, there was one form of protest that could
not be surpressed. Inefficiency and sloth.
A hard worker might be, and often were punished
for suspected crimes: they stood out, and so, were
shot down. Even to receive a worker of the month
award might cause your death.
But you could not even be fired for Slacking off.
A four hour lunchbreak was acceptable, as was
being drunk all day. If you failed it was your
manager's fault.
And that is the great secret of antiemploymentarianism.
"The less you do, the more you are rewarded."
A rule that holds true throughout time.
--
"YOU BELONG TO US NOW!"
"GET DOWN WITH MY SICKNESS!!"
--Kino Beman, brand name
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
Alex@foogle.fargle (Alex) wrote:
>What I wonder is what do kids turn to now for pre-packaged
rebellion? Do
>they even bother anymore, or are they too busy pursuing
bling-bling
>MTV-style fantasies? Or maybe all the "terrorisim"
psyops has them
>scared shitless and hoping the police state arrives
sooner than later.
They do find stuff though. What they protest gets more
and more
ridiculous as the battle lines between Us and Them get
a lot less
clear than they were in the sixties.
Like the WTO riots. What exactly were they in FAVOR
of? What exactly
were they AGAINST? But IMO that's what drives things
like that, kids
looking for a pre-packaged rebellion they can join.
Or anti-fur protesters or PETA. Now people that IMMORALLY
REFUSE to
become vegetarians are the Evil Establishment.
People find ALL KINDS of really silly shit to protest
about. In
Seattle you really see it. I'm going to organize an
anti-protest
rally.
>I mean, they all didn't just become hip to all the
non-conformist
>conformist traps the con's laid, have they?
>
>In a way, it's good to grow up with blatant con
leadership, otherwise,
>you might be conviced that just because a feel-good
guy is in office,
>somehow they're going to stop playing their behind-the-scenes
games.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.com/
"No matter how cynical you get, you can never keep
up."---Lily Tomlin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cardinal Vertigo <vertigo@alexandria.cc>
Joe Cosby wrote:
> They do find stuff though. What they protest gets
more and more
> ridiculous as the battle lines between Us and Them
get a lot less
> clear than they were in the sixties.
[snip]
I'm pretty heavily involved with a "young people's"
progressive group
(which I am way too classy to plug here). Coming up
with sensible,
workable ideas and then recruiting pissed-off and passionate
kids who
want to be a part of "the movement" is a large
part of what we do, just
like it was a large part of what similar groups did
in the 60s and 70s.
The thing is, there's already a fairly well-defined
progressive movement
among young Americans. "Pre-packaged," if
you like.
Our group does absolutely zero advertising beyond underground
word of
mouth stuff. We don't have the funds for anything else,
but we don't
really need it. People come to us already agreeing
with our group's
principles, almost all the way down the line.
All we do is turn disorganized anger toward something
productive by
getting kids to volunteer, march, and vote, instead
of just sitting
around being disaffected and/or disenfranchised.
Of course, I'm still young, idealistic, and foolish
enough to think that
can actually make a difference.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "nu-monet v7.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
> I'm pretty heavily involved with a "young
people's"
> progressive group (which I am way too classy to
plug
> here).
One of those ultraviolent young republican militias,
huh? I've heard all about you guys. Gutter Punks
for Bush.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cardinal Vertigo <vertigo@alexandria.cc>
nu-monet v7.0 wrote:
> One of those ultraviolent young republican militias,
> huh? I've heard all about you guys. Gutter Punks
> for Bush.
VIVA LA REVOLUTION, FAGGOTS
--
"Superstition is to religion what astrology is
to astronomy; the mad
daughter of a wise mother."
- Voltaire
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
"nu-monet v7.0"<nothing@succeeds.com>
wrote:
>Cardinal Vertigo wrote:
>>
>> I'm pretty heavily involved with a "young
people's"
>> progressive group (which I am way too classy
to plug
>> here).
>
>One of those ultraviolent young republican militias,
>huh? I've heard all about you guys. Gutter Punks
>for Bush.
Jason Christie For Jews For Jesus?
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.com/
Original file name: Attn - Aging Yeti Hi#1AD167.txt - converted on Saturday, 25 September 2004, 02:05
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