From: "nu-monet v7.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
Date: Thu, Jul 29, 2004
Along with James Watson, the men who put
the last nail in the coffin of Creationism.
http://tinyurl.com/5xkym
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: urpansoph@aol.com (Ur Pansoph)
The double helix certainly reminds me
of that naughtly snake wrapped around the
tree-branch, if not a Biblical "Jacob's Ladder"
of sorts.
I've spent too much time at the nekkid
Star Wars convention.
-- zosodada
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nenslo <nenslo@yahoox.com>
Ur Pansoph wrote:
> << [RIP Francis Crick a]long with James Watson,
> the men who put the last nail in the coffin of
> Creationism. >>
Now we just have the shambling Zombie Creationism that
keeps busting out
of its coffin and doesn't even die when you shoot it
in the head. It
just regenerates more heads each saying a different
thing or all quoting
each other, kind of a Babbling Zombie Hydra. Cool.
I like to watch
Dr. Carl Baugh on TV sometimes. He has great props
and art.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "U. M. Zaporets" <reverend_jim_jones@yahoo.com>
Yeah, Dr B. is usually fun to watch, but I prefer it
when he keeps his shows
`scientific' and restricts his sucking up to the guests
on his show to a
minimum.
Comedy Central's Daily Show recently got him to cast
a scientific eye on the
The Flintstones. Realplayer required to watch the interview.
http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/pla...rocca_6059.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Anachron" <AnachronNospam@neo.rr.com>
I just wish he could have identified the gene sequence
that pre-wires humans
for belief in every sort of mystic story concievable.
--
Rev. Anachron
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kdetal@aol.com (KD et al)
The soon* to be extinct gene.
*soon being relative in cosmic time
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
It'll never happen.
<dr jekyll mode>
Religious iconography is a product of our pattern recognition
function, IMO. We see commonalities between things
and extrapolate
some underlying pattern. It's a many to one relationship,
this this
and this are all examples of cars. Many things fit
one pattern. So
ultimately you come to a single underlying pattern,
the great
meta-pattern.
People will always see it wherever they look, and you
can't convince
people that something they see isn't real, even if it
isn't.
Of course, we have brains, which are capable of differentiating
what
is real from what isn't. In order for something like
fundamentalist
religion to continue to exist, a literal belief in the
bible, people
have to be capable of shutting off their brain. Of
rejecting what
they think in favor of what they want to think. They
have to be
capable of CHOOSING stupid.
But that isn't just a problem for religion. Most of
what makes the
world what it is comes from choosing stupid. How many
unwed teenage
moms have you seen in the last month? Or people supporting
the war in
Iraq? Or people driving SUVs? (Or people who support
the war in Iraq
-and- drive SUVs?) People know better. But you could
no more get
them to admit that they know better than you could get
a Christian to
admit that it really DOESN'T make sense that the world
was created in
a puff of miracle 6000 years ago.
I think the best thing you can possibly do about it
is to make people
who choose stupid feel really stupid. Don't leave it
socially
acceptable to indulge in a fantasy; eventually some
idiot's fantasy
becomes -your- law. Tear into the self-stupored, point
out the
fundamental flaws and leaps in their thinking in the
simplest possible
terms, and LAUGH YOUR ASS OFF AT THEM. Fuck all that
"eeee ahbut
everybody should be free to choose what they believe!
Like little
butterflies! don't supress anybody's beliefs!"
Everybody is free to
believe what they believe, but the moment that belief
enters the
social realm, the moment they OPEN THEIR MOUTH, it's
time to subject
it to reason.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.com/
EMBRACE the SUCKINESS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kdetal@aol.com (KD et al)
Wow, that was a really nice treatise.
Of course you missed the point....
>>The soon* to be extinct gene.
Soon to be extinct, because any race that continues
to perpetuate such a
gene......
....won't last.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
100,000 years from now I think the cockroaches will
be organized and
grown brains and be trying to figure out why the humans
went extinct.
Probably, like us with the dinosaurs, they will look
for external
causes, like an ice age or a big meteor or a newly-evolved
disease or
competitor. And it won't even cross their minds that
despite having
every possible survival possibility we were just too
stupid to live.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.com/
"Rev." Falwell Opens Mouth, Inserts Entire
Leg
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kdetal@aol.com (KD et al)
only stupid people are breeding
cretins cloning and feeding...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Anachron" <AnachronNospam@neo.rr.com>
"KD et al" <kdetal@aol.com> wrote:
> Wow, that was a really nice treatise.
>
> Of course you missed the point....
>
> >>The soon* to be extinct gene.
>
> Soon to be extinct, because any race that continues
to perpetuate such a
> gene......
>
>
> ....won't last.
Really? How do you account for the last 10,000 years
of human history? If
you kill a god and new one will be instantly created.
In the begining there was man, and he said "it
is not good enough, for we
are alone in this world." So man said "let
there be god" and lo the idea
of omnipotence appeared in his mind, a new god concept
ready to spread like
an infection thought the minds of his fellow humans...
The confusion gene does not appear to be fatal.
--
Rev. Anachron
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kdetal@aol.com (KD et al)
Mental and emotional 2 year olds with nuclear weapons
and guided missiles are
not the same as mental and emotional 1 year olds with
spears and stones.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Anachron" <AnachronNospam@neo.rr.com>
"Joe Cosby" <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
wrote:
>kdetal@aol.com (KD et al) wrote:
> I think the best thing you can possibly do about
it is to make people
> who choose stupid feel really stupid. Don't leave
it socially
> acceptable to indulge in a fantasy; eventually
some idiot's fantasy
> becomes -your- law. Tear into the self-stupored,
point out the
> fundamental flaws and leaps in their thinking in
the simplest possible
> terms, and LAUGH YOUR ASS OFF AT THEM. Fuck all
that "eeee ahbut
> everybody should be free to choose what they believe!
Like little
> butterflies! don't supress anybody's beliefs!"
Everybody is free to
> believe what they believe, but the moment that
belief enters the
> social realm, the moment they OPEN THEIR MOUTH,
it's time to subject
> it to reason.
>eventually some idiot's fantasy
> becomes -your- law.
Absolutely, but Xianity, being a cult of persecution
LOVES it when you
attack. It just makes them cling to the sky daddy
all the harder.
Oooo now I can suffer just like Jeeezsus. Won't he
feel sorry for me and
love me all the more!
A better approach is the dialectic, using their own
dogma against them. BUT
even when this is done successfully they will ultimately
retreat into "God
works in mysterious ways" and dismiss the logic
trap you have revealed.
I had a discussion with a computer administrator once.
You would think he
would need a logical, disciplined mind to keep the machines
humming. Guess
not. At least not when it comes to the black box called
religion. But we got
into the free will debate. They seem to really respond
to this one - keep
hammering on it I think this is a weak spot and they
secretly know it.
Me: Your God is ALL powerful and ALL knowing therefore
your free will is an
illusion. He knows the future and could prevent it
if he choose to. By
your own doctrine nothing can happen without his tacit
permission.
Him: No we have free will and can choose to do right
or wrong.
God made us perfect and a perfect being has free will.
God is not
responsible for the misuse of free will.
This was followed by much back and forth along these lines.
They have a big problem.
They want a perfect and unlimited god, all loving, all
knowing and yet his
handiwork - the universe and our world is obviously
flawed. They try to
deflect the problem by shifting the blame to Satan.
But this gets them
nowhere since God also created Satan knowing what he
would do in advance.
My point is unlimited power implies unlimited responsibility.
Why is god exempt from the moral code of the bible?
Christian answer: "Because he is God."
When they say "You have free will" shoot back
"Yes but so does God." Who
has more free will a human being or an infinite God?
What is the cause and
what is the effect? Follow the chain of causation and
the finger of blame
ultimately points to God.
So what is a militant Atheist to do when confronted
by a true believer? Try
logic. If the Neanderthal you have cornered shoots
back a look that says
"Is that Zulu you are speaking?" Then whip
out "Bob's" little pamphlet
and speak his native tongue. There really is only one
true religion, ours.
We have the bullshit to prove it.
--
Rev. Anachron
I think you're confusing and open mind with an empty
mind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
Date: Fri, Jul 30, 2004
"Anachron" <AnachronNospam@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>"Joe Cosby" <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
wrote:
>> kdetal@aol.com (KD et al) wrote:
>> I think the best thing you can possibly do
about it is to make people
>> who choose stupid feel really stupid. Don't
leave it socially
>> acceptable to indulge in a fantasy; eventually
some idiot's fantasy
>> becomes -your- law. Tear into the self-stupored,
point out the
>> fundamental flaws and leaps in their thinking
in the simplest possible
>> terms, and LAUGH YOUR ASS OFF AT THEM. Fuck
all that "eeee ahbut
>> everybody should be free to choose what they
believe! Like little
>> butterflies! don't supress anybody's beliefs!"
Everybody is free to
>> believe what they believe, but the moment that
belief enters the
>> social realm, the moment they OPEN THEIR MOUTH,
it's time to subject
>> it to reason.
>
>>eventually some idiot's fantasy
>> becomes -your- law.
>
>Absolutely, but Xianity, being a cult of persecution
LOVES it when you
>attack. It just makes them cling to the sky daddy
all the harder.
>Oooo now I can suffer just like Jeeezsus. Won't
he feel sorry for me and
>love me all the more!
>
>A better approach is the dialectic, using their
own dogma against them. BUT
>even when this is done successfully they will ultimately
retreat into "God
>works in mysterious ways" and dismiss the logic
trap you have revealed.
>
>I had a discussion with a computer administrator
once. You would think he
>would need a logical, disciplined mind to keep the
machines humming. Guess
>not. At least not when it comes to the black box
called religion. But we got
>into the free will debate. They seem to really
respond to this one - keep
>hammering on it I think this is a weak spot and
they secretly know it.
>
>Me: Your God is ALL powerful and ALL knowing therefore
your free will is an
>illusion. He knows the future and could prevent
it if he choose to. By
>your own doctrine nothing can happen without his
tacit permission.
>
>Him: No we have free will and can choose to do
right or wrong.
>God made us perfect and a perfect being has free
will. God is not
>responsible for the misuse of free will.
>
>This was followed by much back and forth along these
lines.
>
>They have a big problem.
>They want a perfect and unlimited god, all loving,
all knowing and yet his
>handiwork - the universe and our world is obviously
flawed. They try to
>deflect the problem by shifting the blame to Satan.
But this gets them
>nowhere since God also created Satan knowing what
he would do in advance.
>
>My point is unlimited power implies unlimited responsibility.
>
>Why is god exempt from the moral code of the bible?
>Christian answer: "Because he is God."
>
>When they say "You have free will" shoot
back "Yes but so does God." Who
>has more free will a human being or an infinite
God? What is the cause and
>what is the effect? Follow the chain of causation
and the finger of blame
>ultimately points to God.
>
>So what is a militant Atheist to do when confronted
by a true believer? Try
>logic. If the Neanderthal you have cornered shoots
back a look that says
>"Is that Zulu you are speaking?" Then
whip out "Bob's" little pamphlet
>and speak his native tongue. There really is only
one true religion, ours.
>We have the bullshit to prove it.
One thing Usenet is good for is getting the chance to
be exposed to a
lot of extremes of fanatical and off-kilter belief.
Personally my
conclusion has been that you can't reason with the most
extreme cases.
Just in this group you get huge numbers of them. The
111 guy or Bob
Dean. Really flat-out crazy people.
They are irrational-argument machines. As you begin
to get close to
the core of their fantasy, the machine kicks into gear.
They can go
on forever spinning replies, it's an automated process.
The replies
won't connect to one another. They often won't really
connect to what
you said. There will be no underlying rationale to
it, because there
is no underlying idea. They are trying to protect a
mental image, not
to propose an idea to you.
That's why IMO it doesn't work to put them on the defensive
and try to
argue logically to them. They just keep jerking and
spitting out
replies. However stupid the replies are, as long as
they can keep
jerking and spitting, they retain the mental image,
the fantasy. You
aren't really even having a conversation.
It's more like if they wrote this script. And you keep
proposing
ideas to screw up the script. They just have to keep
inventing things
that will fix it.
Like
>Why is god exempt from the moral code of the bible?
>Christian answer: "Because he is God."
The first thing I ask myself is, where do they get that?
How do they
know God is exempt from the moral code of the bible
because he is God?
There isn't a line in the bible saying "God is
exempt from the moral
code of the Jews because he is God", is there?
They just make it up. And it doesn't cross their mind
that they are
doing so. It's really no different from a kook like
Bob Dean, who has
obviously invented some kind of fantasy world where
he is really some
kind of SUPER subgenius, rather than facing the reality
that he's a
useless swine.
As long as he can keep churning out replies, he is completely
oblivious to reality and to anything you say to him.
As long as he
can keep inventing fantasies to keep his fantasy world
intact.
I got in a similar thing on a Passion of the Christ
message board. I
pointed out that
1. According to the Bible, you Get Jesus or you go
to Hell
2. For 2/3 of the world's history (if you accept a
creationist time
line of 6000 years since the world was created) there
was no Jesus, so
everybody born was doomed to Hell.
3. Therefore, God was either so incompetent or so completely
sadistic
that he designed the world that way.
So this was the reply:
"The previous posters are right in a way. But it
must be understood
that God is a fair God. There are many who have never
heard of nor had
the opportunity to believe in and follow Jesus Christ.
They may be in
places where there is not teachings of his word or among
a people who
have other religions evolve. These people are not necessarily
condemned to hell."
And then she blinked.
I laughed my ass off. And almost cried at the same
time, because I
knew she believed it completely.
I mean, she has presented this theological "fact",
something like
"WELLLL 'cause Jesus wasn't born until earth year
4000, God has some
kind of special dispensation worked out for people who
were born
before he was. That they uh forgot to mention. In
the Bible."
I mean, where the HELL does she get that? She just
pops it up out of
thin air. But within the blink of an eye of inventing
this idea, she
believes it.
It's what I mean about the pattern being unbreakable
because it's part
of our perceptual process. "God" to her is
kind of a core concept, a
part of her mental process. It doesn't seem strange
to her that
whatever SEEMS right when she's talking about God IS
right. Because
really she's talking about her own mental processes,
her own
integration of the world into a whole.
To put it another way, the real definition of "God"
is "what is
necessary for the world to make sense to me".
In that sense, we all
have that same core concept, which is why it's so easy
for people to
talk all kinds of crazy stuff about God, completely
disagreeing with
each other, and never even suspect that there is a problem
with that.
That they aren't talking about the same "thing"
at all.
I don't really see it as completely exclusive to religion.
I have
argued the same kinds of arguments with anti-religious
people who to
me were every bit as blinkered. Far less often, granted.
I'm kind of
a bad Subgenius, I am on the other side of the fence
some times.
Like when I knew Libertarians, they had exactly the
same pattern about
evolution that religious people do about God. Evolution
would SOLVE
EVERYTHING. Evolution would FIX THE ECONOMY. Evolution
would CURE
ALL DISEASES. And so on. It was really the same thing,
it was their
core concept. It was the one concept by which all other
concepts
could be made to make sense.
Even among scientific advocates, there is a kind of
core belief in the
primacy of causal relationships which can often drift
from the
rational to the "core concept". And even
among skeptics/debunkers
I've encountered myself there is often a kind of core
belief,
translating things into the simple terms that make sense
to them. I
was in an argument that went on for months where a bunch
of skeptics
were arguing with people in alt.magick, the magick types
were
explaining that it was a kind of "western yoga"
and for the most part
was no different from meditation. The debunkers kept
arguing back
that NO, that wasn't right, and quoting like Gary Gygax's
Dungeons and
Dragons books and saying "see, THAT's what you
REALLY do. But that's
NONSENSE."
Whichever side of the fence I happen to be on that day,
I see the same
thing.
But bad Subgenius or not, only religion, and really
only western
religion, has made an INSTITUTION of irrationality.
The Christian
idea of "Faith", IMO, is why Christians are
so especially stupid.
That's what "Faith" really is, at least in
practice, it's not only
permission to say "well, I know this doesn't make
sense, but I believe
it anyway" but a COMMAND to do so.
All in all, if I have to be on the wrong side of the
fence half the
time, I would rather be on the skeptic side of the fence.
***
Wow, that was really a lot of extraneous shit nobody
really cares
about.
***
That was some really good frop.
***
I can go on about stuff forever when I'm fropped well.
I can go on forever about stuff when I'm not too but
when I'm fropped
I can REALLY go on about stuff forever.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.com/
THE SLACK MUST FLOW.
- kevbob the chilling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Anachron" <AnachronNospam@neo.rr.com>
"Joe Cosby" <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
wrote:
> But bad Subgenius or not, only religion, and really
only western
> religion, has made an INSTITUTION of irrationality.
The Christian
> idea of "Faith", IMO, is why Christians
are so especially stupid.
> That's what "Faith" really is, at least
in practice, it's not only
> permission to say "well, I know this doesn't
make sense, but I believe
> it anyway" but a COMMAND to do so.
>
> All in all, if I have to be on the wrong side of
the fence half the
> time, I would rather be on the skeptic side of
the fence.
Just like with Peter Pan if they all believe in the
fairy-god then he will
be true. At least in their minds. They need as many
people to buy in to the
fantasy as possible. Unfortunately for them even when
they all come to
agreement the objective world periodically crashes back
into their lives and
blows the illusion. When this happens they adjust
the rules a bit and
redouble the effort to believe.
An encounter with a SubGenius or any other religion
is an intrusion to be
repelled. In their minds we are, at best lost souls,
at worst minions of
the devil. Wearing the horns is more fun. They create
fucked up rules that
we are forced to tolerate. We get to torment them by
poking holes in their
fantasy. It's like Dracula forced into the sunlight,
their belief begins to
melt away. "It burns, it burns!"
--
Rev. Anachron
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "nu-monet v7.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>
Anachron wrote:
> An encounter with a SubGenius or any other
> religion is an intrusion to be repelled. In
> their minds we are, at best lost souls, at
> worst minions of the devil.
And the thing the devil be best at is deception.
So, if you want to be a good minion and really
stick your penis into the gap between their ill-
used frontal lobes, don't conflict with them.
They expect that. They are usually ready for it.
Hit them where they are weakest. Remember that
these people are prone to gullibility.
Don't be their enemy, be their intolerable friend.
Tell them that you belong to an Xtian secret
society--created by the POPE a *THOUSAND* YEARS AGO.
And the purpose of your SECRET SOCIETY is to hunt
down and DESTROY DEMONS that MASQUERADE AS XTIANS!
I suppose it is kinda like a roll playing game from
that point, to see how far you can lure them in,
and maybe even convince them that their Xtian church
is REALLY FULL OF HIDEOUS MONSTERS THAT WANT TO SUCK
OUT THEIR SOUL THROUGH THEIR TOES AND SHIT.
But you must start by convincing them that YOU are
holier than THEM, by a wide margin, and that, unlike
just sittin' around praying, YOU have a mission from
GOD.
Being a sadistic individual, you might even get them
working for you, doing all sorts of strange, painful,
difficult and expensive tasks TO HELP RID THE WORLD
OF THESE HORRIBLE, EEVIL MONSTERS.
Like, "Take the State Highway until you see marker
number 58. Stop your car and walk due east into the
desert 530 paces. You will see THREE REDDISH ROCKS
that have been placed there in a TRIANGLE pattern.
This TRIANGLE forms a GATEWAY for demons. Put two
of the rocks together, and picking up the third with
a DISPOSABLE rag--DON'T let it touch your skin or
clothes--take it at least 100 yards away and throw
it as far from the other two as possible. This will
DEFORM the gateway, so any MORE monsters that come
through will be TORN APART. Be sure to burn the rag
when you are done. AND A SPECIAL WARNING. If you
look in ANY direction, and you see what looks like
a desert mirage GET OUT OF THERE AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!!
IT MEANS A DEMON MIGHT COME THROUGH AT ANY MOMENT!!!"
There really is no end to this bullshit. To be nice,
you might even write down the directions for them, so
they don't screw it up and get eaten by demons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
"Anachron" AnachronNospam@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>An encounter with a SubGenius or any other religion
is an intrusion to be
>repelled. In their minds we are, at best lost
souls, at worst minions of
>the devil. Wearing the horns is more fun. They
create fucked up rules that
>we are forced to tolerate. We get to torment them
by poking holes in their
>fantasy. It's like Dracula forced into the sunlight,
their belief begins to
>melt away. "It burns, it burns!"
I have to print out more copies of Pamphlet # 1 and
Pamphlet # 2. I
love when I get approached by some fringe group, nervously
trying to
recruit me to their weird beliefs, and I can hand them
a pamphlet of
my own filled iwth ideas even MORE weird than theirs.
When I was downtown on Saturday, the SCIENTOLOGISTS
had a table set up
and a bunch of pamphlets. I was like GAHHH I HAVE to
do SOMETHING!
But I drew a complete fucking blank. I couldn't think
of a rant or a
head-fuck or anything. At least if I'd had a pamphlet
I could have
given them that.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.com/
"When Life gives you lemons
you blow those lemons to bits with your laser cannons!"
- Brak
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: urpansoph@aol.com (Ur Pansoph)
<< When I was downtown on Saturday, the SCIENTOLOGISTS
had a table set up
and a bunch of pamphlets. I was like GAHHH I HAVE to
do SOMETHING!
But I drew a complete fucking blank. >>
A simple "hey, fuck you" would have sufficed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Cosby <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl>
ah ANYONE could do THAT
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.com/
My definition of a true subgenius is a salmon who realizes
that all
the pussy is actually DOWN stream.
- ME
Original file name: RIP Francis Crick.txt - converted on Saturday, 25 September 2004, 02:05
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