INTERVIEW

To: <bobignizio@modwest.com>
From: "Rev. Ivan Stang" <stang@subgenius.com>
Subject: Re: I would like to interview you Cc:

Dear Rev. Stang,
Thanks for responding and for checking out my site. I wouldn't feel too bad about not updating the subsite so often, as I've only scratched the surface of what's on there myself. Below, you will find probably way too many questions. Feel free to skip whichever ones you wish to. Hopefully at least a few of them are different than what you usually get asked. If you read any of the other interviews I have online, you know I don't just throw up a straight q and a (no, that would be too easy) so whatever you give me I should be able to put together into something resembling a real live article. If you want to make my October edition, just send your answers back by the last week of September. I thrive on last minute deadlines. Don't feel rushed, though. Whenever you get the time is fine, as you're always relevant. Also feel free to send me any announcements (if you have some sort of e-mailing list) of sub events, and I'll gladly put the info up on my site. Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer my queries.

Sincerely,

Bob Ignizio

1. I know you've probably answered this one a zillion times, butS how/when did you and the other church founders come up with the idea for the Church, and to what degree were you influenced by discordianism? Besides you, who were the primary movers and shakers in the early church? Who would you say are the most active shapers of the Church, besides yourself, today?

Dobbs was Emaculated in '53, but he didn't get organized about releasing his Word until the late 70s. If you want to call this "organized." Dr. Philo Drummond, Dobbs' drinking buddy, thought I was a likely candidate for the Sacred Scribe (or Flack-Catcher) job, being the only person that desperate for work, and we printed the first pamphlet in January 1980. I had read about Discordianism in Pope Bob Wilson's ILLUMINATUS!, but I thought it was something he and Shea made up for the book. Much later on, both Wilson and Discordian co-founder Kerry Thornley contributed a lot to SubGenius publications. I was also fortunate enough to get to party with Robert Shea a little before his death. (Wilson and Shea have both been frequent guests at events sponsored by Cleveland's A.C.E., which I'm a proud member of.)

The Book of the SubGenius credit page is a fairly accurate list of who to blame.

Some of the older Doktors were released by the Dobbs Art Demon at some point, and don't whip out a song or collage every week like they used to in the 80s, but the slack got taken up (so to speak) by others who were snared by the Internet traps, and caught the Dobbs Art Demon themselves.

Dr. Philo Drummond, Dr. Howll, Puzzling Evidence, Rev. Susie the Floozy, Papa Joe Mama, and myself are examples of olden-times preachers who never stopped. Dr. K'taden Legume, Jesus and Magdalen, Fernandinande LeMur, and Chas and Dave of ESO would be examples of people who came aboard in the 90s and had huge impacts on the material output of the Church.

2. "The Conspiracyo/oo is an important part of the church. How does your view of the con differ from other conspiracy theories out there?

The Conspiracy that Dobbs is concerned about is capitalized. Also, it encompasses all other conspiracies, because it is essentially what philosophers call Human Nature. It is the unthinking conspiracy of all the people who think they are "normal," and that "normal" is good, and therefore that "non-normal" is automatically bad. The SubGenius on the other hand seeks out the non-normal, out of pure curiosity.

3. I get the feeling that the church is sort of a way to fill the innate need in humans for some sort of ritual or spiritual experience without the usual dogmas associated with traditional religions. Am I more or less correct? Please elaborate either way.

Nah, fuck the spiritual experience. SubGenii don't need "Bob" or other SubGeniuses for that. That happens, or not, regardless of what we do. But we LOVE the ridiculous dogmatic nonsense. (You kinda had it backwards.)

Rock bands handle the "ritual" part just fine these days.

4. If you could accomplish only one thing with the Church, what would it be?

Force 1998 to hurry up and get here. According to Dobbs Prophecy, godlike aliens were supposed to arrive in 1998 to magically solve all our problems. Obviously, the Con has been messing with the dating system since prehistory, just to throw off "Bob's" promise. Either that, or this whole thing is a lesson that we shouldn't necessarily depend on preachers, prophets, aliens or salesmen.

5. Approximately how many people are official church members at this time?
Do they come from a fairly wide range of spiritual backgrounds?

Over the years there have probably been something like 20,000 SubGenius ministers actually signed up, dues-paid, etc., but they drift around so much that at any given time we can only get our hands on 6 or 7 thousand of them.

It really is a cross section, from tiny little rich male children to huge poverty stricken elderly ladies. Of course it's a bit more popular among the college kids who have spare time, and the baby boomers who never grew up or are hitting the "Middle Aged Crazy" point.

6. Anyone who has read Crowley or Robert Anton Wilson will obviously have an easier time understanding The Book of the Subgenius. To what extent do you find them and other metaphysical philosophers useful? Have you ever tinkered around with "magicko/oo and do you consider it "realo/oo magic, a useful psychological tool, or a waste of time?

Magick might be real, but, judging by its practitioners, belief in it appears to negate it.

I have only a passing familiarity with Crowley, but I suspect he's laughing in his grave at the way certain types have taken his spoutings with such ponderous seriousness. I know many people who say they are "magickians," and their example has generally led me AWAY from that direction as fast as my little peg-brain would carry me.

There's plenty of "magic," but there's nothing magical about it. Just shit that we don't understand yet. And there's nothing in the rule book that says we ever WILL understand a lot of things. For that matter, there's no god damned rule book at all. "Bob" is not THE answer, and neither is anything else.

However, because he is the Greatest Hypocrite, King "Bob" teaches 5 Keys to Maygickkk, which begin with "Get Off Your Ass," and end with "Wash Your Ass."

It is amazing how one's dreams start coming true when one applies that very first Key. That Ass Key. Hey, a computer joke!

7. Other religions seem to saddle sexuality with all kinds of guilt trips.
What is the Subgenius position on such things?

Every position in the Kama Sutra and about 3 dozen more that its authors had not invented at the time of Sir Richard Burton's translation.

A mean saying among the SubGenii is, "The only difference between SubGenii and Discordians is, SubGeniuses are getting laid." But it is important that the lone SubGenius know that, as far as "Bob's" concerned, it's also perfectly okay to NOT HAVE SEX with ANYBODY.

The X-Day Drills and devivals have become a nice way to meet other weirdos interested in sex for sex's sake, or to meet a decent conversationalist for a change, sometimes even both. That was not always true. SubGenius devivals used to look like GWAR concerts: a sea of bespectacled nerdy boys. Like me. We spent half the 90s trying to change that by sweet-talking hard headed women, and succeeded in making the Church into what we had previously been misrepresenting it as.

Last X-Day Drill I got to legally wed two women... legally, because one of them had previously been a man, and still had a male's driver's license.

8. Considering all the various flakes and con artists (not implying that you are) who have used the name of religion to establish tax exempt status, why don't the Subs take advantage of it? Is it true that you are actually able to make a living solely off the Church at this point?

Dobbs the the GREATEST flake and con artist; in fact he was voted Fraud of the Century by Time Magazine's online polFrom the git-go, The SubGenius Foundation, Inc., was set up as a novelty manufacturing company in the State of Texas. The reason we aren't tax exempt is not that we're especially noble, although "Bob" doesn't believe that taxpyers should have to help support religions they might not happen to believe in. It's that we really are a novelty company that sells stuff for a profit. That might not be ALL we are but it saves the headache of a certain type of bullshit paperwork that I am simply not able to fill out without puking.

It is true that I get by without any OTHER day jobs besides the Church -- most of the time -- but since my idea of Slack is more focused on food and sleep rather than things and crap, it's easier to live modestly.

I still wouldn't mind being filthy rich. Wouldn't mind that a bit, and wouldn't fel the slightest bit guilty about it. I'd hire all my pals to sit around and make up goofy pictures and stories and noises.

9. In the past, certain humorless types have tried to label the church a "hate groupo/oo, largely due to the holocaustal branch. While this was a good source of publicity and humor at the time, do you worry now that the Bush administration has more or less authorized the revival of Cointelpro that the church might be a target? To your knowledge, has anyone from the government ever investigated you?

They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't. The Secret Service came to my house and interviewed me at length in 1982 on account of our Kennedy-Dallas jokes. I myself contacted the FBI to make sure their file on us had the RIGHT kind of disinformation in it. (I had been getting death threats due to a sarcastic nonfiction book I had done about my fellow kooks and crackpots.)

I am not especially worried about being carted off to a re-education center, because what we do is not political. Officially we see human politics as a dead end. PatrioPsychotic AnarchoMaterialism, the SubGenius platform, basically means "Every Yard a Kingdom, Every Checkbook a Queendom, Every Doghouse a Serfdom." This has not stopped us from making fun of political assholes on all ends of the spectrum, of course. I am kind of a pathetic wimpy middle of the roader myself on many issues, but I try really hard to see that the left wing and the right wing SubGenius Dupes get their spew-time, at least where I'm the editor -- the radio show and the main website. The SubGenius newsgroups, on the other hand, are totally unmoderated free-for-alls... I like those best of all!

I seriously doubt if any law enforcement agencies don't seriously doubt our seriousness. We have been described by a legitimate protest group as "...certainly no credit to any legitimate protest group," and to tell the truth, I'm kind of proud of that characterization. Legitimate protest groups often strike me as being a mirror images of what they're supposedly against. Seems like they all turn out to be a bunch of fascist assholes with just another rule book, in the end. Assholes that can't take a joke. PHOOEY!!

This is not to discourage people from working for what they believe in. My point is that we're not going to tell anybody what to believe in, except to be skeptical of those who ARE telling you what to believe in. That may be the one reason why you CAN believe in US, you see. Impeccable logic, isn't it. Because we admit we're full of shit, we're the only ones being truthful. A sad paradox that could only happen in a world overpopulated by humans.

10. On a related note, do you ever feel that the open ended, chaotic nature of the Church has allowed the wrong people to appropriate its name and use it in a negative way? Have you ever "excommunicatedo/oo anyone?

I have found that ignoring them works wonders.

11. At the Akron devival, you defended the beliefs of various other religions, which I thought was quite sporting of you. However, do you think they would return the favor? If not, why do you see it as important to stand up for them?

What we're saying is, don't stereotype people based on their religion. ALL the religions "suck," to each other, or to a scientific secular humanist fanatic. But just because, say, Scientology is stupider than even the most outrageous Subgenius blather, and Christianity causes as many problems as it solves, doesn't mean that a given Scientologist or Christian is a bad person. YOU CANNOT JUDGE BOOK BY ITS COVER, unless you're "Bob," is all we're saying.

12. Aside from the Subs, the only other group who in general to be aware that some sort of "cono/oo is going on are the fundamentalist Christians. While I sometimes find they have useful information to offer, I'm probably just as scared of them taking over as I am of the present group of mind controlling power junkies. What are your feelings about them, and do you see any sort of common ground where Subs and other non-Christian dissidents can work together with them?

Not that I can think of... I don't know if any of the SubGeniuses would be able to stand the perfumes and after-shaves that those people wear. Except for the Amish. But the Amish wouldn't like our cussing and the pants on the women.

EVERY religion has its "conspiracy". Every religion, every political party, damn near every philosophy is based on distinguishing an "Us" from a "Them." In our case it's very simple. If you gave "Bob" your $30 for salvation, you're saved and one of "Us."

13. As with any good religion, music plays an important part in your Church. Other than ESO and St. N and Sister Helena Handbasket, who do you consider official hurch bands?

The original SubGenius super-groups were Doktors for "Bob" in Little Rock and The Swingin' Love Corpses in St. Louis, but they all got lives and wives and kids and so forth.

ESO is not exactly an official Church band; they were around long before they ever heard of "Bob," and in fact they hardly ever do any songs ABOUT "Bob." Like most bands that I end up exploiting on Hour of Slack a lot, they record a "Bob" song once in a blue moon -- but it kicks ass.

If you want to count bands that are well known, that bled over into the Church a little bit or vice versa, both Goerge Clinton and David Byrne have used bits of our material, and I have worked with some of the guys in DEVO on their videos. Lately I have been hearing that the new Jennifer Love Hewitt (sp?) music video on MTV has distinct trademark Dobbsheads floating around in the background. (Believe it or not, prior to this I had never heard of her.) The lead singer of Sublime, Bradley Nowell, was a Subgenius, which he proved forever by ODing just as he was getting famous.

We put out a Best Bobsongs compilation every year or so, and it seems half the bands in the line-up are new each time. An Arizona group called The El Queso All Stars has been contributing some excellent "Bob" stuff lately, but they do lots of other things... just as one example.

Audio collage, cut-ups and warpings of spoken-word stuff and soundtracks, probably accounts or as much noise-time on our radio shows and Cds as music does.

14. Robert Anton Wilson always seems to keep an optimistic attitude towards the world, regardless of how bad things get. Do you feel the same way, or do you think we're headed for some really dark times with the present socio political climate?

I have always felt that we are heading for some rough times, no matter who's running which Conspiracy, simply due to overpopulation combined with technological advances that can backfire on us. Short of X-day happening, I'm more or less with Frank Zappa when he said, "It won't blow up and disappear, it'll just look ugly for a thousand years."

I think the reason Pope Bob is so cheerful is that he's so OLD. He's spent enough time examining the SHIT, and just he's "had enough shit," that's all -- he's turned his attention to what gives him Slack. I'm almost 50 and I seem to be going in a similar direction these days -- Slackwards. You can only bang your head against a brick wall in bitterness for so long before you finally destroy enough brain cells to relax -- that's one way of looking at it. Getting older and wiser is another way of looking at it. There's an old joke about an old bull and a young bull standing on a hilltop, looking down at a pasture full of cows. "Hey, Old Bull," says the young bull, "Let's run down there, and fuck some of those cows."

"No," says the old bull. "Let's WALK down there, and fuck ALL of those cows."

The situation in my personal life improved a lot in the last few years, and I've been amazed how much less agitated I am now about the rest of the world. "If you want to change the world," Voltaire is said to have said, "cultivate your garden." I had been so dismayed with the way things were going, wars-wise, that I had been seriously looking into moving to another country. But, after a two week long spate of house cleaning and yard work, I decided that America IN MY IMMEDIATE VICINITY wasn't so bad after all. So we decided to stick around for awhile.

"I'M IN A TEXAS UFO SEX-DEATH CULT -- AND I VOTE!"

15. After several X Day drills and no Xists, and with the way the con has cleverly disguised the true year in which we are living, the Church has moved in the direction of building one's own saucer, or building one's own Amsterdam. How would you recommend that people go about such a task?

First thing they should do is NOT ASK MY ADVICE. All I'd be able to tell them is what kind of Escape Saucer *I'd* build.

Youths who don't know any better have been asking me, "How can we defeat the Conspiracy?" And my most sincere answer is, if you want to weaken "Them," do what makes YOU STRONGER. Take care of yourself first, and then start worrying about how you're gonna fix everything else. Move out of Mom's basement, or off the gov't teat, even if it means (gulp) getting a job. (I can't BELIEVE I'm saying that!!)

16. On a more mundane note, how do you feel about your new home in Cleveland? What were your reasons for moving to our fine city?

The best looking, best cooking girl in the world lives here. Eventually I will probably steal her away to Texas.

17. As I am getting older, I more and more see the wisdom in the degree of importance you place on one's back not hurting. Any other words of wisdom you'd care to give in parting?

If you drink, remember to pee; if you eat, remember to shit; if you wake up, remember to sleep. You'd THINK that kind of stuff would be obvious, but these are SubGeniuses we're talking to.

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Original file name: InterviewW BobIgnizio - converted on Monday, 21 July 2003, 13:44