Maybe the Scoops really ARE on their way.

From: Unclaimed Mysteries <theletter_k_andthenumeral_4_doh@unclaimedmysteries.net>
Date: Mon, Nov 3, 2003

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html

--
It Came From C. L. Smith's Unclaimed Mysteries.
http://www.unclaimedmysteries.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com>

holyshitfuckme.

Did I just really see what I think I just saw?

--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Unclaimed Mysteries <theletter_k_andthenumeral_4_doh@unclaimedmysteries.net>

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

"Positions are available in many communities across the Nation..."

I nominate ____________

--
It Came From C. L. Smith's Unclaimed Mysteries.
http://www.unclaimedmysteries.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)

Ivan Stang

J.R. "BoB' Dobbs

MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)

I remeber when I was in the Army, My parents sent me letter form the local
Selective Service Office saying that I had failed to register for the draft.

I had entered the Army at 17, so I did not get a chance to resister at 18.

I I wrote a letter back saying that as I had been in Germany for over a year,
and really wanted to see everyne at home, I refused to register and they can
come & get me.

I also signed with my Name, Rank, Unit, and APO.

I also gave a copy to my Firsy Sergent.

Never heard form them again until I was 22 and out of the regular Army and in
the Reserves.

They sent me another letter saying I now had to register again.

I once again said I would not register becuase

1) I was already Honerably Discharged from 4 years on Active Duty

2) I was in the Army Reserve assigned to unit that woul probally be in a war
zone before the Draft Notices even got out

3) Come & Getme!

Never heard another word form them again.

MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>

I've been warning you people periodically for a while,
now. They've been getting the war train rolling since
way before 911.

http://tinyurl.com/tfri

http://tinyurl.com/tfro

http://tinyurl.com/tfru

http://tinyurl.com/tfrv

http://tinyurl.com/tfrw

--
"At the sound of the beep you will forget
the first part of this message <beep>."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>

Rev. Richard Skull wrote:
> >http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html
> >
>
> I guess the Bushies are gearing up for the
> re-enstatement of the draft.

Worse than that. The ALL want it.

Washington is like a drunken stag party. The draft
is a 16-year-old girl who shows up out of nowhere
and starts doing an erotic dance in front of all the
fat, old men.

Now, they KNOW that she is underage, and they KNOW
that they will probably really get in trouble, but
she keeps shaking that bootylishus booty of hers,
and they know SHE WANTS IT and SHE IS PROVACATIVE,
and all it takes is ONE LITTLE THING and it's going
to be GANG BANG CITY! Senator Hatch holds her arms
as Senator Hillary guides Senator Kennedy's short
little fuck shaft into her virginal cooter. Senator
McCain is all sweaty, underneath it all, desperate
to ram his leprous red sausage up her tight little
asshole as soon as W is finished making it bleed.

So there they sit, republicrats and democans
together, waiting for the cue, blue balls aching.
The repulicrats want her for the DISCIPLINE, the
joyous, homoerotic return to Jack Webb as "The
D.I." The democans want her because it gives
everybody a feeling of togetherness of purpose,
kind of a big cheerleading section, shouting,
"Go, team, Go!"

Oh, fuck them all. Worthless bunch of murderous
neurotic assholes.

--
"At the sound of the beep you will forget
the first part of this message <beep>."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Alliekatt" <alleykatzen@hotmail.com>

Pinks picking the Pinkest.

I'm not in debt and any kids I pop out will have dual citizenship and will
be able to bugger off to nice neutral Spudsuckers-R-Us-Land without
accountability. I will have dual citizenship in 6 months. It's nice to
have an out. Nobody I care about will get drafted, and as far as I'm
concerned, there need to be fewer cuntry morons on the road with teenage
speed hardons, so give them something to do in the chaotic years. Let the
Marines think for 'em. Skim them off for service using local tattlers, who
cares. I only associate with 4-F geeks anyhow.

Caesar needs an army to smash the barbarians. Eventually the newly
civilized barbarians will defeat Rome when it descends into weakness and
decadence. Then another empire will rise, proselytize, fight, win, get too
comfy, and lose it. And so on.

alliekatt

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Rev. Ivan Stang" <stang@subgenius.com>

nu-monet v6.0 <nothing@succeeds.com> wrote:
> Worse than that. The ALL want it.
>
> Washington is like a drunken stag party. The draft
> is a 16-year-old girl who shows up out of nowhere
> and starts doing an erotic dance in front of all the
> fat, old men.
>
> Now, they KNOW that she is underage, and they KNOW
> that they will probably really get in trouble, but
> she keeps shaking that bootylishus booty of hers,
> and they know SHE WANTS IT and SHE IS PROVACATIVE,
> and all it takes is ONE LITTLE THING and it's going
> to be GANG BANG CITY! Senator Hatch holds her arms
> as Senator Hillary guides Senator Kennedy's short
> little fuck shaft into her virginal cooter. Senator
> McCain is all sweaty, underneath it all, desperate
> to ram his leprous red sausage up her tight little
> asshole as soon as W is finished making it bleed.
>
> So there they sit, republicrats and democans
> together, waiting for the cue, blue balls aching.
> The repulicrats want her for the DISCIPLINE, the
> joyous, homoerotic return to Jack Webb as "The
> D.I." The democans want her because it gives
> everybody a feeling of togetherness of purpose,
> kind of a big cheerleading section, shouting,
> "Go, team, Go!"
>
> Oh, fuck them all. Worthless bunch of murderous
> neurotic assholes.

And I'll bet the old peanut-butter-in-the-crack-of-the-ass trick
doesn't work anymore, either. Not even the broomstick in the butt
fashion statement will deter the NEW Little Man from the Draft Board.
Remember Daffy Duck's battle against the Little Man from the Draft
Board. Who kept saying, "Er.... what's all the hubbub, Bub?" That that
hideous cartoon nightmare will become a reality for the second time in
my life, just in time to get my KIDS, JUST GOES TO PROVE WHAT WE'VE
BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!! (You especially, apparently!)

When I was 18 they were doing the Lottery. I was #30 and would have
been shipped straight to Hamburger Hill or Cu Chi to be a tunnel rat at
gunpoint... but I had flat feet! And for some reason that was enough to
keep you out! The professed heroin-addiction and homosexuality, and the
5 dexies I took to fuck up my blood pressure, did NOT convinced them,
and in fact the draft physical shrinks laughed at me when I tried those
excuses.

But the most horrifying thing about my draft physical experience of
1973 was that from what I could tell, 95% of the good-ol-boy young men
there were RARING TO GO and considered it their duty to their country,
rather than slavery.

Instead I ended up working for ex Army and British Navy guys and got
treated about the same as if I'd been drafted after all, except that
all danger came from "friendly fire."

Some of the ones I knew who got drafted and went to Vietnam had the
time of their lives and still yearn for those days! Others have to take
powerful sedatives and painkillers just to get through the day. Any
that died, got killed before I ever got a chance to meet them. All I
really know about them is that there were a lot of them.

I keep half expecting a jar with Richard Nixon's living head in it to
suddenly be announced World Overlord, like in Futurama.

--
4th Stangian Orthodox MegaFisTemple Lodge of the Wrath of Dobbs Yeti,
Resurrected (Rev. Ivan Stang, prop.)
PRABOB

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com>

"Rev. Ivan Stang" <stang@subgenius.com> wrote:
>But the most horrifying thing about my draft physical experience of
>1973 was that from what I could tell, 95% of the good-ol-boy young men
>there were RARING TO GO and considered it their duty to their country,
>rather than slavery.

It's one thing about Vietnam that I have never been able to explain to
people. It was before my time but I worked in the VA for a few years
and got a good picture of the times from veterans who got shipped.

People after Vietnam all had this naive idea that everybody during
those years was spending their weekends at Woodstock and spending the
week at Berkely protesting the war.

The reality is, most people, then as now, believe what the government
tells them to believe as surely as my cat will run for the kitchen
when he hears me pouring food, and as quickly. The total number of
people who were ever actively protesting the war was a tiny minority.
Tricky Dick was RIGHT. The "silent majority" DID endorse the war.
They were too stupid to do otherwise. The beatings and tear gassings
of protesters couldn't have gone on the way they did if there wasn't a
certain substantial amount of grass-roots public support. Let alone
Kent State, where they just went the fuck ahead and shot protesters.
As far as I know, there was never an investigation as to WHY that
happened. Nobody was ever called to explain why live rounds were used
on American citizens.

And whatever nascent realization that people might have had then that
maybe it -wasn't- such a good idea to let a lot of dull-witted rich
people decide to send us half-way around the world to kill foreigners
for no particularly well-explained reason seems to be gone now.

I read Robert A Wilson's "Prometheus Rising" recently, and he mentions
in passing how "we ended the Vietnam war". "We" being those with a
raised consciousness and transcendental thinking and so on. The
reality is the Vietnam war went on for years in spite of the protests
and draft dodges and any impact that the protests had on the decision
making process of those in power is questionable at best.

All that acid and Timothy Leary mysticism and hare krishna and campus
intellectuals talking marxism and the net effect was darn close to
zero.

--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com

If a Bob is pipeless, long-haired, non-Slack-emitting, quoteless, and
not trying to sell anything, we hardly consider that a proper "Bob."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)

>People after Vietnam all had this naive idea that everybody during
>those years was spending their weekends at Woodstock and spending the
>week at Berkely protesting the war.

Most of the "Nam Vets I know were either just out of School or working low
level Conspracy Jobs when they got drafted.

>Tricky Dick was RIGHT. The "silent majority" DID endorse the war.

The "Silent Majority" were the ones who BELIEVED the bull shit! The JCS KNEW in
1963 that short of total war, we could not save South Vietnam becuase its
Government was so corrupt and incompetant.

There is a book out called "Derilection od Duty" that was written by a Col.
attended the Army War College. He had access to all teh documents (even teh
ones Still Classified) pertaining to the US sending troops to Southeast Asia.

JFK was not even cold in his grave before LBJ wanted to invade. The Pentagon
Cheifs of Staff held several war games and each one had the same outcome. South
Vietnam fell becuase no one out side of the US and a few very wealthy
Vietnamese even cared ot trusted the RVA leaders.

But, they knew LBJ was commetted to getting in there, so each of the Chiefs
told McNamera & LBJ that THIER respected servcie could win the war alone. This
was to get $$$$$ and to knock down the other Branchs in the eyes of Congress &
and the President.

The Air Force told them they could win the war with Airpower alone

The Army told them that by sending a few divisions over they could stop the
insergances

The Navy/Marines said they could win the war by themselves and that the Army &
Air Force did not need to be involved.

Each of teh Cheifs of Staff KNEW the RVN could not be salvaged, but sent troops
anyway, and continued to support that Lie even to the Nixon era.

That is what the Pentagon Papers were all about.

>Kent State, where they just went the fuck ahead and shot protesters.
>As far as I know, there was never an investigation as to WHY that
>happened.

There was an investigation, but the results were "pre-ordained" as one might
expect from the "con"

The storey told by the "Authorities" does not match Eye witness and film
footage of the shootings.

But you also must remeber that unitl 1968, National Guard Members were not even
required to take Basic Training!

It was expected that the National Guard UNits would train the recruits to the
Army requirments. Hell, some States had diferent Standards of Training (How do
you think Bush got in!). And most National Guard units were "old Boy Clubs" who
spent most of the "Drills" Playing pool and drinking beer. The Armory in
Milford, DE still had the "Club" with the pool tables, slot machines, etc. Its
building is used for storage now, but all the stuff to include the Bar was
still there. To join the Guard in those days you had to know someone as most
Guard units were overstength.

Also there were "white" units and "black" units in the Delaware Guard. Seaford,
DE; was the States "Black" unit. If you were black and joned the guard, you
were assigend to the unit in Seaford, DE no matter what part of the State you
lived.

>Nobody was ever called to explain why live rounds were used
>on American citizens.

Becuase the units Commander thought the Protetser were "Commies" becuse they
doubted the Goverments Stories abuot what was going on in 'Nam.

MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: polar bear <bear@pole.com>

Comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam are misleading. Russia in Afganistan is
more to the point. They've even started with the shoulder launched
missles now, a trick the US taught them.

pb

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com>

Yeah I agree that Russia in Afghanistan is a good comparison ...
Afghanistan was kind of Russia's Vietnam.

--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com

I wouldnt mind finding Bob Dean's tongue in my mouth, as long as the rest of
him wasn't attached to the end of it.
- shizoor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: polar bear <bear@pole.com>

One thing's for sure: Iraq is fast becoming America's Waterloo.

pb

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>

Rev. Ivan Stang wrote:
> But the most horrifying thing about my draft
> physical experience of 1973 was that from what
> I could tell, 95% of the good-ol-boy young men
> there were RARING TO GO and considered it their
> duty to their country, rather than slavery.

I have an odd perspective on the draft, that being
when I was a kid, I knew a WWII draft avoider &
general Luck Plane Slack-offer, who let me in on
"the secret" (think "The Ancient One" and "Dr.
Strange", as in.)

Seeing that he was prime meat for drafting, he
first joined Army Air Corps ROTC. He figgered
being an officer, and a AAC ground pounder (bad
eyes), was about the safest place to be. But
just AFTER he got commissioned, the Army decided
it had too many junior AAC officers, so they waved
their magic wand and made him a Signal Corps private.

Still not being a draftee, but on the fast track to
the war, he was sent to a massive training camp in
Louisiana, where he spent his time carrying a 2x4
around so that he would look busy. Fried bologna
for food still beats getting shot at, even if you
vomit after breakfast every day.

Having only a minimal staff, not particularly
inclined to train the troops or maintain discipline,
he got far-too-frequent passes and leaves home, to
the dismay of his father, a WWI draft avoider and
general Luck Plane Slack-offer himself.

Then he got promoted to corporal. One week before
his battalion got sent to Europe. Making him too
senior to go with. His replacement was KIA. Six
months later, he got a week in the stockade and
was busted for being drunk and sleeping on duty,
missing being shipped out because of a clerical
error. His second replacement was KIA.

Well, by the time they were finally ready to ship
him out, the war in the Pacific was about over, and
the only duty left was as a guard escorting a boat
full of mostly criminal negro troops to Japan. But
after a delay of months for unknown reasons, they
even gave up on that idea.

So, time for discharge. But the story didn't even
end there. Because as they were outprocessing a
whole bunch of soldiers, they gave a sales pitch
for joining the Reserves. "Hey, free money!" said
almost all of them, except him. He left skid marks
and bid structured lifestyle farewell.

Almost all of those poor dumb fucks were recalled
and sent to Korea. Just about the time he finished
his govt paid college education on the GI Bill,
then bought a house on a low interest GI mortgage.

"If you don't have Slack, you are dead meat."

--
Anyone with a gun pointed
at you is the government.
--nu-monet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>

polar bear wrote:
> One thing's for sure: Iraq is fast becoming
> America's Waterloo.

That's not quite so sure. In fact, being the
naturally distrusting character I am, I notice
little things about the current unpleasantness:

1) Reporter complaining: "They keep saying that
we only report the bad things, but they don't give
us access to good things. It doesn't make sense.
Why should they not want us to report on all the
hospitals, schools, electrical grids, and working
oil pipelines?"

2) Iraq applies for membership in the WTO, and
is warmly received. The Iraqi delegate is the one
who suggests that Iraq should only be an "observer"
member until they have an elected government,
though the WTO people hadn't considered it.

3) Afghanistan is, and has always been, a horrible
mess. With all attention focused on Iraq, reporters
(joyously) forget Afghanistan and all its woes, even
though far more bloodshed is going on there on a
daily basis. In Iraq, the army "arrests", in Afghan,
they "kill."

Put it all together and it makes a classic deception
ploy. Most likely a "pre-October surprise", when an
entire military-size DIVISION of trained Iraqi police
arrive in country back from their training in eastern
Europe, AND the government of Iraq gets elected, AND
the US military leaves the big cities for easily
defended rural garrisons.

In other words, timing is everything. Just in time to
really fuck up the democrats in the next election,
Bush unveils a victorious Iraq campaign, beats the
patriotic drum a bunch, announces large numbers of
troops coming home, etc.

I might add that one of the stupidest things that the
democrats consistently do is insist that either every
one of their opponents is an imbecile, or that they
are an imbecile run by a hidden cabal of evil idiots.
As in a military campaign, this is a very, very dumb
thing to let yourself think. It gets you killed.

--
"I'd just like to say I'm sailing with the Rock
and I'll be back like Independence Day with Jesus,
June 6, like the movie, big mothership and all.
I'll be back."
--Executed Serial killer Aileen Wuornos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: polar bear <bear@pole.com>

All these things are possible, and no doubt carry considerable weight
to someone living in the US. I still think the Waterloo analogy is
apt, though. France was not destroyed as a nation, it simply suffered
a defeat that reduced it's position on the world stage. The American
empire, regardless of who's at the helm, looks terribly overextended
here. A temporary reversal of fortunes is possible, but the major
trend is still towards reduced importance in global affairs.

Perhaps Britian is a better example. At some point, the cost of
maintaining an empire exceeds the benefits. Eventually those costs
are recognized and politics adjusts to reflect the fact. We're not
there yet, but I'd say were very close. Something we'll see in our
lifetime, I'm sure.

pb

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mshotz@aol.commonkeypo (Rev. Richard Skull)

>Perhaps Britian is a better example. At some point, the cost of
>maintaining an empire exceeds the benefits. Eventually those costs
>are recognized and politics adjusts to reflect the fact. We're not
>there yet, but I'd say were very close. Something we'll see in our
>lifetime, I'm sure.

Briton had to give up its Empire as payment for these "darkies" fighting for
our side in WWII.

India especially shed LOTS of blood stopping Rommel and in Italy.

The offer of Post war independence was the only thing that Kept the Indians
from letting the Japanese in.

MSHOTZ: The Post Post Modern Man

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>

polar bear wrote:
> Perhaps Britian is a better example. At some
> point, the cost of maintaining an empire exceeds
> the benefits. Eventually those costs are
> recognized and politics adjusts to reflect the
> fact. We're not there yet, but I'd say were
> very close. Something we'll see in our lifetime,
> I'm sure.

I'm not so sure. An analysis of what makes the US
an international powerhouse is very interesting.
On the surface, if you look at the Fortune 50, you
will see oil and agribusiness companies--mengasso
conglomerates--and yet this is deceptive.

Economically, there is only ONE 100% correlation,
in history, of a single factor associated with the
rise or fall of a nation. Mining.

No so much of its own right, but because active
mines are the initial multiplier to everything that
happens in an economy. They are the "pebble in the
pond" that influences everything.

And though it is a subculture in the US, mining is
an almost obsessive endeavor for Americans. And
the US government will do almost anything for the
industry. Anywhere in the world where there is
prospecting or mineral exploitation going on, you
will find Americans. We even have satellites whose
primary purpose it to identify mineral deposits
otherwise invisible on the ground.

The American sphere of influence is intent on
retaining this supremacy, as example, in Australia,
a vast sandy region is soon to produce enormous
quantities of titanium--the idea to make it as
common in our sphere as aluminum is now. The impact
on the US economy will be staggeringly good.

Everything mined is seen by the US as "strategic
material", which the government hordes, futures are
traded in, and oligopoly industries viciously keep
out any outsiders. Efforts to 'corner' copper,
silver, gold, mercury, palladium, rhodium, platinum,
etc., have all been nuked, either by their respective
cartels or by the government.

But why? Though economists long ago declared the
concept of "mercantilism" (whoever has the most specie,
i.e. gold and silver, is the most powerful) dead; the
US government believes otherwise. Mercantilism is
expanded to include ALL strategic materials, AND
non-renewable resources, AND renewable resources.

In other words, if you can trade wheat for oil or
gold, you win. They will eat up the wheat, but they
can run out of oil and gold. You just grow another
crop. Conversely, if you have steel made into cars
to sell in exchange for raw iron, you win, because
you eventually get a lot more steel compared to
whoever sold you the raw iron. If you sell gold to
get a rarer metal, you win. It is a game of whoever
gets the most of everything at the cheapest price
wins. And by wins I mean they cause a material
drain on everyone else.

So the primary deficit of the US is a "lack of will"
in its people to engage in war. This is being
calculated into the game with technology replacing
a goodly amount of manpower, and mercenaries taking
the jobs of the unwilling.

Compare how many Americans that are willing to be
drafted with how many would be willing to be hired
as professional soldiers by a corporation at good
wages. Reasonably loyal corporate armies.

--
I don't know what you're talking about.
I've never met you before in my life.
That story sounds like utter bullshit.
I wasn't there and it wasn't me.
I am *not* in denial. Shut up.
--nu-monet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: polar bear <bear@pole.com>

"nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com> wrote:
> I'm not so sure. An analysis of what makes the US
> an international powerhouse is very interesting.
> On the surface, if you look at the Fortune 50, you
> will see oil and agribusiness companies--mengasso
> conglomerates--and yet this is deceptive.

I don't have the Fortune list because they want you to subscribe, so I
used Forbes instead. It amounts to the same thing.

The top 10 Forbes are

1. General Electric - Manufacturing & Financial
2. Citigroup - Financial
3. ExxonMobil - Energy
4. AIG - Financial
5. Bank of America - Financial
6. Wal-Mart Stores - Retailer of Chinese manufactured goods.
7. Fannie Mae - Financial
8. Verizon Communications - Telcom
9. IBM - Information Tech
10. Altria Group - Food & Beverages.

A financial powerhouse perhaps, certainly not a manufacturing one.

> Economically, there is only ONE 100% correlation,
> in history, of a single factor associated with the
> rise or fall of a nation. Mining.

Over centuries this is probably true. Today, I'd argue that the
ability to produce machine tools is more important. In a nutshell,
machine tool production sums up the variables that go into leading
economies such as high levels of education, basic science and research,
along with stable capital structures and sound investment planning. A
good leading indicator, if used wisely.

Since few machine tools are actually produced in the USA now, US
machine tool consumption is a better overall measure of basic
industrial activity. Today, that number is less than half what it was
in 1996. http://www.amtda.org/usmtc/history.htm

I would argue, the ability to manufacture machines of high quality for
domestic and trade purposes is key to economic leadership.
Minerals, you can bargain for with machines, or steal with...again,
machines.

I'd also argue that America has lost this advantage, traded foolishly,
like Jack & the Beanstalk, for the chimera of "Financial Services" as
if a bunch of bean counters shuffling inflated financial claims could
somehow make up for the inability to produce basic goods that people
want. The further absurdity of drawing every last man-jack into this
fraud via pension plans, IRA's, mutual funds and mortgage debt is just
icing on the cake. A final kick to the nuts of American industrial
labour.

I'd like to keep going and address your other points, but I just can't.
It's been a long day and frankly, I'd much rather sing songs about
Eskimos. I'll try to sumarize my position though. I think I owe you
that, since I started this with the throw-away comment on Great
Britian.

I think America is following in the footsteps of every empire that
preceded it. I suspect there's some universal law at work here, but
that's for another day. The basic similarities are a decline in
manufacturing, overextended financial system, dependancy on external
funding, and a severe trade imbalance. Other symptoms include a
decline in education and literacy, resort to mystical forms of belief,
a rise in crime, decline in morals, and an influx of foreigners. Oh
yeah.... and a war-like posture. Almost forgot.

I look around and see two possible candidates for replacement. Europe,
and China. My money's on Europe for the simple reason that China is
ultimately dependent on America's ability to borrow and consume. That
game's just about over, and there's no one left to take up the slack.
The consumer of last resort for the Chinese economy would be China
itself, and that ultimately threatens party control. It's an issue
they still have to confront, whereas Europe has it behind them.

European industrial strength, drawing on the Russian hinterlands trumps
China's captive market IMO. So, start learning French!

One final note. Although I'm generally a pacifist, I say we hedge our
bets and nuke China immediately. It will clean up the balance of
payments and put Americans back to work. I don't know about you guys,
but I can take any amount of smarmy Europeans over Chinese. Ask
yourself: Who would YOU rather work for?

pb

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com>

polar bear <bear@pole.com> wrote:
Joe Cosby <joecosby@SPAMBLOCKmindspring.com> wrote:
>> polar bear <bear@pole.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam are misleading. Russia in Afganistan is
>> >more to the point. They've even started with the shoulder launched
>> >missles now, a trick the US taught them.
>>
>> Yeah I agree that Russia in Afghanistan is a good comparison ...
>> Afghanistan was kind of Russia's Vietnam.
>
>One thing's for sure: Iraq is fast becoming America's Waterloo.

I guess the point, to me, is that Iraq is shaping up to be a long,
ugly war in a shithole of the world which is going to be characterized
by guerilla action against an evasive enemy with no opportunities for
clear "victories". Politically divisive and with no ultimate point.

Really though, I still sincerely believe that comparing Iraq to
Vietnam, Afghanistan, Waterloo or whatever else is going to miss the
point. Iraq is Armageddon. I think deep down, the Guuber white house
believes this, and that is a lot of why we are there.

We are playing out a violent fantasy that a deranged hermit had on
mushrooms 2000 years ago, as a national policy.

PRAISE "bOB"!

--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com

That's not a pillow, it's an amish land mine.
- Subgenius Spice

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>

polar bear wrote:
> I think America is following in the footsteps
> of every empire that preceded it. I suspect
> there's some universal law at work here, but
> that's for another day.

There was, it was Arnold Toynbee's historical
200 year limit on nations. The US has already
well broken that "rule."

But it all boils down to EOW stuff. Predictions
for the demise of the US have a long and respected
history. But like the predictions of Paul Ehrlich,
who managed to get *everything* wrong in his scare
book, "The Population Bomb", life is not a straight
line statistic.

Back just a few years ago, a prediction could be
made that the US was about to collapse because the
Fortune 50 was loaded with dot-coms. Granted, they
did cause a recession, but that is not collapse.
Today, you can, and you have, said the same thing
about financial services.

But financial services are not economically unstable
like the dot-coms. In this market, however, they
are just particularly profitable, and thus they are
at the head of the list. With an economic recovery,
rising interest rates, and the normalization of the
economy, they will slide back down the list, with
the brokerages being last to go, the market having
some catching up to do.

So I'm still waiting for the why America should fail.

--
I don't know what you're talking about.
I've never met you before in my life.
That story sounds like utter bullshit.
I wasn't there and it wasn't me.
I am *not* in denial. Shut up.
--nu-monet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Reverend Vertigo <vertigo@nospam.invalid>

nu-monet v6.0 wrote:
> polar bear wrote:
>>I think America is following in the footsteps
>>of every empire that preceded it. I suspect
>>there's some universal law at work here, but
>>that's for another day.
>
> There was, it was Arnold Toynbee's historical
> 200 year limit on nations. The US has already
> well broken that "rule."

[snip other, more compelling reasons why the US is not yet immediately doomed]

The way I figure it, there's only 58 years on Toynbee's clock, not 227.
Start the clock at the end of WWII, which definitively marked the US as a
military and economic superpower.

--
Dean for America
http://www.deanforamerica.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: polar bear <bear@pole.com>

"nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com> wrote:
> So I'm still waiting for the why America should fail.

Depends what you mean by fail. Britain is still around, so is Spain.
I'm not predicting utter catastrophe, although it might seem that way
to some. Just a reduction in stature. A come-upance.

The reason I focus on financials is that they are at the root of the
problem. Yes, they are profitable as long as rates are low, and as
long as they keep ballooning their balance sheets, but that can't go on
forever. There's some massive liquidity operations happening behind
the scenes, much of it centered on the GSE's which are accidents
waiting to happen. Fannie and Freddie are behind the largest asset
inflation in history: the US real estate bubble. When that fails, it's
going to make the savings and loans fiasco look like a sunday picnic.

Incidently, the dot-com bubble was just a symptom of a larger credit
bubble which has it's roots in the early 70's when Nixon suspended gold
and effectively destroyed Bretton Woods.

The Fed and attendant lackeys are now trying to fight a credit cycle
downturn (Kondratieff winter) with business cycle tactics, according to
the old shop-worn Keynesian formula of print and spend. I say it
won't work, and the market apparently agrees with me judging by the
slide in the dollar, which would be a crash if not for central bank
intervention.

Toynbee may have been right, I don't know. I lean more on Von Mises,
Rothbard and Kondratieff. Keynes and Friedman I dismiss out of hand.
They are lackies of the CON. Forget me. Read what Warren Buffet has
to say. He's moving into foreign currencies for the very first time -
thinks the dollar has a lot further to fall - thinks a financial train
wreck is just around the bend. You want to bet against Buffet?

If that 200 year rule refers to empires I'd say it hasn't really been
violated (though I'm sure Toynbee only meant it as a rule of thumb).
2003 -200 puts you in 1803. The Monroe doctrine didn't appear until
1823, and the US didn't really begin it's empire phase until the
Spanish American war in 1898. So, there's still some time left on the
meter.

The root of my argument is that America has borrowed it's way into a
hole that it can't pay it's way out of with industrial production OR
information technology OR financial services OR raw materials. It
can't inflate it's way out either, though that is apparently what
they're trying to do.

When Britain had it's Sterling crisis back in the 20's it was America
that stepped up to the plate and took over global financial leadership.
but who's going to bail out America? China and Japan are the only
players of size buying US debt and they're only doing it to support
their exports. When Americans stop shopping, the dollar starts
dropping.

I note that Russia is already pricing oil in Euros and the Muslim world
is moving to gold Dinars. The Canadian dollar is at 75 cents fer
christs sake. Have you checked the CRB index lately? Break-out from a
double-bottom after a decade long bear. Gold continues to rise, even
in the face of an apparent recovery in stocks and bonds.

I think the market is trying to say something here.

pb

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nu-monet v6.0" <nothing@succeeds.com>

polar bear wrote:
> > So I'm still waiting for the why America should fail.
>
> Depends what you mean by fail. Britain is still
> around, so is Spain. I'm not predicting utter catastrophe,
> although it might seem that way to some. Just a reduction
> in stature. A come-upance.

Once again, though, there just doesn't seem to be a reason
for it to happen. Spain had all of its specie depleted,
once the New World was out of reach. Britain had its upper
and middle classes devastated by WWI and was hopelessly
overextended in its empire, like Rome.

A banking crisis is almost entirely imaginary numbers,
though, with vast amounts of capital based on nothing,
that are nothing and do nothing, existing on computers
only to keep the books balanced.

For instance, currency exchange rates, a simple model,
only matter when currency is exchanged. Within each
country, currency has a value independent of the rate,
often even if there is great fluctuation.

Granted, if you get leaders who are willing to pervert
the system for a select few, like the hedge fund
billionaire bailout of a few years ago, you're asking
for trouble, but only because you are supporting
imaginary money with real money, i.e. taxpayer dollars.

But there are natural limits to hanky-panky like this.
For example, the Laffer Curve, while a whipping boy by
modern economists who really hate the idea, still has
validity. In other words, the government *can't* tap
real money too much, or the real money stops coming.

Second, the government can't just print money to inflate
itself out of its woes, ala Jimmy Carter. Bill Clinton
was more successful in issuing lots of long term bonds
so he could benefit now, and someone else would have to
pay later. But still woefully inadequate to influence
the "real world."

And real money pushes imaginary money around. A marginal
shift in real money is the difference between a "good
economy" and a "recession" *despite* what imaginary
money does.

Almost all of Bill Gates' wealth is in imaginary money.
Beyond a few million in pocket change, it's all tied up
in stock or being used to support his tax avoidance
charities. Ironically, if he even wanted to have a
billion dollars of real, liquid funds, it would cost
him a dozen billion dollars of imaginary money value.

And that's where 'adjustment' comes in. The banking
crisis that seems to be happening right now, is totally
leveraged by real money. So when the correction happens,
it will only take a modicum of real money to put things
right.

So this is why I concentrate on the tried-and-true old
economy activities, especially mining. Mercantilism,
by the old definition, ruled the world for centuries.
My "New Mercantilism" just properly enlarges it to
include those things that make a nation strong. And
that includes only "real" economic effects.

And the US has those in abundance. Plus, a major brain
drain on the rest of the world. Nothing succeeds like
success.

--
I don't know what you're talking about.
I've never met you before in my life.
That story sounds like utter bullshit.
I wasn't there and it wasn't me.
I am *not* in denial. Shut up.
--nu-monet


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